Surprise or no surprise?

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree, William_2. Surprise is part of resolving start of Initiative. There is no logical necessity to resolve Initiative until someone decides to make an actual attack (or similar significant action).

Trying to track "awareness" and following the RAW formulaicly will only get you gibberish because awareness is not usefully defined by the RAW. There are a dozen weird hypotheticals in this thread and no one here has yet dared attempt to answer them based on the RAW alone. I could easily come up with more.

A few of the things missing from the definition of awareness:
Aware of danger or aware of a specific enemy?
How specific must the awareness be?
What if the information is partially incorrect?
What if the specific information is incorrect but the danger is real?
What if the information is a good guess? How correct does a good guess based on minor clues need to be?
Does guessing apply at all?
Is awareness alone sufficient?
Does general readiness apply to any degree?

Let me give one more hypothetical to illustrate my point...

I am coming to kill you. You are in your room, as you always are this time of day, practicing your moves, sword in hand. You hear a noise. It is me in the hallway, but it could easily be a servant passing by. Most likely a servant. I have a "scouting report" that you are in your room. When I burst in, sword in hand and screaming for blood...
(a) Am I automatically surprised because you are aware and I am not?
(c) Roll for Initiative?
(b) Are you surprised?
(d) Other?

I left what the "scouting report" was deliberately vague.

The scouting could be...
* I know you are usually in your room at this time of day.
* A wild and lucky guess.
* A dumb servant said he just saw you there.
* I used a crystal ball 6, 12, 60, 600, or 6000 seconds ago and saw you there.
* I detected evil.
* I detected evil and I have no idea whether you were evil or not. Just assuming.
* I actually thought your right hand man would be here, and I decided to kill him first.
* etc, etc.

By KarinsDad's simplistic application of the RAW, the answer is (a).

I think the common sense answer is that would be (b) in "most" cases. Does it make sense that some kicking in a door and expecting a fight can be surprise by what he expects to occur? I think not.

 

[KarinsDad]

By KarinsDad's simplistic application of the RAW, the answer is (a).

By your simplistic analysis of my approach, you would deduce that.

Unfortunately, I was talking about the Spectre that could detect opponents through the wall and you are talking about a fighter who cannot.

Try again.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Unfortunately, I was talking about the Spectre that could detect opponents through the wall and you are talking about a fighter who cannot.

According to the RAW, the relevant issue is "awareness". Hearing an unidentifed noise on the other side of a door in a hallway (as did the Fighter in my hypothetical above) fulfills a reasonable definition of aware -- it is used as an example of awareness in the PHB, no less. As does detecting living creatures as a spectre could.

Your counterargument is in direct contradiction with the RAW. Perhaps you would like to clarify?

 

[meleeguy]

So, does this scenario qualify as the "party is aware of the enemy"?

Hello Everyone,

Here's my opinion.

The party expected to find 2 golems and a spectre, and they were right. So they were aware. The spectre was also aware, and can alert the golems (assuming they can communicate) either outside of combat or as a free action.

That said, I also agree the awareness rules are quite vague and do not handle all situations well. Vague rules are exploitable. Thanks for bringing this up as I've been struggling with the whole surprise thing myself.

I've been reading these boards for a couple years with great enjoyment. I just couldn't lurk any longer.

 

[Starglim]

Er...hang on. The Spectre can tell exactly where they are and instructs the Golem on what to do? Then the actual encounter has started- but if there is a surprise round, the bad guys use it up by staying in place and doing nothing. You don’t pick when surprise is- it is at the beginning of the encounter. The Spectre could, for example, leave, or attack- but it chooses to lay in wait. The surprise round is gone, by definition, before any of the characters act. In that case, I would roll initiative right then, myself (as DM). If the Golem wins, it can ready that attack. If the character opening the door wins, they act faster than the Golem is able, and complete their action.
So, same result for me, but different thinking. I Can’t even agree with myself.

Right the first time: the encounter begins, the spectre and golems are now in combat and ready actions for when the PCs see them through the doorway. PCs see the door (they are not in initiative), PCs open the door (still not in initiative), golems and spectre get their readied actions against flat-footed PCs, then everyone rolls initiative.

 

[Pielorinho]

Guys, don't heat things up with words like "simplistic," okay?

As for what I'm arguing: I'm simply arguing that the RAW lead to absurdities, and that we've got to apply some common sense to them in order to avoid the absurdities. Allowing some readied actions outside of combat fits my common sense better than forbidding them does.

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

According to the RAW, the relevant issue is "awareness". Hearing an unidentifed noise on the other side of a door in a hallway (as did the Fighter in my hypothetical above) fulfills a reasonable definition of aware -- it is used as an example of awareness in the PHB, no less. As does detecting living creatures as a spectre could.

Your counterargument is in direct contradiction with the RAW. Perhaps you would like to clarify?

I'm not sure you understood my position since I gave two possibilities, both of which were straight out of RAW.


Note the word in your sentence here: "unidentified". In order to be aware of an enemy, you have to identify someone AS an enemy.

That's the difference. I suspect that the Spectre would attack any living creature. The Fighter would not attack just anyone who is on the other side of the door.

Additionally, the Spectre knows the exact location of the creatures, the Fighter does not.


In one example, the creature KNOWS and "detects" that an enemy is near.

In the other example, the creature SUSPECTS that an enemy might be near.


This goes back to the group in the original example. They suspected that the Golems and Spectre might still be there.

That gives them time to prepare if they want and possibly a bonus to a Listen roll at the door, but it does not make them aware.

Ditto for the Fighter. It makes him edgy and he might possibly reach for his sword (i.e. preparation), but he is not truly aware of an opponent. He is only aware of the possibility of an opponent.

The Spectre is definitely aware of opponents.

According to RAW, when combat starts, the Spectre is aware (and has been for several rounds), its opponents are not, so it gets a standard action before initiative is rolled. The Golems do as well because they were informed that a definite enemy is approaching.


The other thing that this does is prevent PCs from going up to every dungeon door and saying "We think something is on the other side. Therefore, we are ready and aware.".

No, they are not. They are ready (not the readied action, just suspicious), but they are not aware.

 

[Pielorinho]

A potential problem with your interpretation, Karinsdad: if a character heard a noise on the other side of the door that sounded like a monster to them, would they then be aware?

Does everyone have to hear these noises, or only one person, who can report that information to the other party members?

In most games, if the rogue hears noises and reports this to other members, we consider the entire group to be aware.

By ruling that prediction of enemies doesn't constitute awareness, but hearing a report that someone can detect the enemies by sound constitutes awareness, we make the following strategy extremely tempting:

The two party members with the highest bluff checks listen at each door.
Both party members report hearing noises on the other side of the door, regardless of what they actually hear.
Everyone does their best to fail their "sense motive" checks.
The party is therefore not surprised.

Yet that's obviously ridiculous.

I'd rather take people at their word, within reason, if they say they suspect someone's on the other side of the door.

Daniel

 

[Aaron2]

I agree, William_2. Surprise is part of resolving start of Initiative. There is no logical necessity to resolve Initiative until someone decides to make an actual attack (or similar significant action).

What if a party enters a room and suprises a bunch of monster. They can, if they wish, spend their entire suprise round buffing. The monsters, in response, can spend their entire first round buffing as well. Combat != attacking

The problem is you don't know if any actual attacks will occur until after you have rolled for initiative. By then its too late to decide whether combat is going to start or not. In the original example, the Spectre could easily attack the PCs through the wall.

I don't like the "don't let the PCs ready actions outside of combat" rule since I'd rather have a workable set of rules for doing so rather than a lame restriction. For me, the main thing preventing this is that Readied actions always work 100% perfectly.


Aaron

 

[KarinsDad]

A potential problem with your interpretation, Karinsdad: if a character heard a noise on the other side of the door that sounded like a monster to them, would they then be aware?

This is not a problem. It is only a problem if you have allowed your players to be "aware" in the past with this situation.

Otherwise, it's how the rules work (which most reasonable players do not have a problem with as long as it is fair for both the PCs and the NPCs).

Does everyone have to hear these noises, or only one person, who can report that information to the other party members?

In most games, if the rogue hears noises and reports this to other members, we consider the entire group to be aware.

By ruling that prediction of enemies doesn't constitute awareness, but hearing a report that someone can detect the enemies by sound constitutes awareness, we make the following strategy extremely tempting:

The two party members with the highest bluff checks listen at each door.
Both party members report hearing noises on the other side of the door, regardless of what they actually hear.
Everyone does their best to fail their "sense motive" checks.
The party is therefore not surprised.

Yet that's obviously ridiculous.

I'd rather take people at their word, within reason, if they say they suspect someone's on the other side of the door.

The solution is simple. Don't allow this.

Just because you hear a noise does not make you aware. The noise might be an echo, or something totally unrelated.

Limit awareness to actually aware of an opponent that the character would perceive to be an opponent.

There are other ways to avoid the "all of the enemies in the room get a surprise round".

For one, have the PC opening the door push it open with his arm, but be behind the wall to the side of it. Granted, not all doors have that much room, but most should have at least parital cover (if not full). Have the rest of the PCs further away, around a corner or behind a Tower Shield or whatever.

Also, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Remember, most creatures would not be able to detect opponents on the other side of a closed door (and why ARE doors closed in dungeons most of the time anyway??? ). If the players cast Detect Evil from behind a door, allow THEM to get the same standard action before the opponents get to roll initiative.

As long as you are consistent in the ruling, there are no problems. Most closed doors (unless there is a light issue), both sides are unaware and you just roll initiative anyway.