Surprise or no surprise?

[Thanee]

A rogue hears a party of orcs behind the door and says, "Guys, I can hear some orcs behind this door. Cleric, you open the door. I'm gonna shoot the first orc i see. Wizard, you fireball them. Fighter, you charge in." They then enact this plan. The orcs inside are unaware of them. Who gains a surprise round?

The PCs gain surprise, because they are aware of their opponents *and* can choose the moment of attack (unlike in the spectre example, where the moment of attack is chosen by the "unaware" side)!

A rogue correctly believes there's a party of orcs beind the door, but does not hear any. He says, "Guys, I can hear some orcs behind this door. Cleric, you open the door. I'm gonna shoot the first orc i see. Wizard, you fireball them. Fighter, you charge in." They then enact this plan. The orcs inside are unaware of them. Who gains a surprise round?

Also the PCs, but only if it really is the way the rogue says, otherwise noone gains surprise.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

The PCs gain surprise, because they are aware of their opponents *and* can choose the moment of attack (unlike in the spectre example, where the moment of attack is chosen by the "unaware" side)!

Also the PCs, but only if it really is the way the rogue says, otherwise noone gains surprise.

So, any time a PC correctly informs other PCs of what's behind the door (in a situation similar ot the one above), the entire party gains surprise, regardless of the informing PC's reasons for passing along the information? I can live with that; it seems to me that it contradicts what Karinsdad was saying (although I could well be wrong).

The rules do not tell them they'll be surprised in the situation you described (#2). At worst, combat starts without the surprise round, but sides roll initiative, and off they go. At best, the PCs might get a surprise round (depending on circumstances prior to this point).

Again: I'd imagine we'd be able to work this out at the table, should you and I be in a game together. But perhaps you'd best lay off the word "clearly".

I'm not sure what's wrong with the "clearly," since you seem to be agreeing with it; but I'll lay off it if you'd like. My point is that siutation #2 is not terribly different from the situation in the OP.

I think there are several overlapping arguments here, which may be where it's getting confusing .

Daniel

 

[silentspace]

To answer the original question, the party is not aware of the enemy. Many examples of why have already been given.

But there is not enough information to answer whether the party is surprised or not.

It doesn't matter is the spectre is aware of the party, because it does not take a surprise round action. You can't ready an action outside of combat.

Without giving more information, I can't tell if the party is surprised. However, if the spectre and golem are in plain sight, there is no surprise round. As soon as the door is opened, everyone is aware of each other, and combat begins with an initiative roll.

However, if the spectre and golem managed to foil the party's detection after the door is opened, they could get a surprise round. In order to use their surprise round, they need to take a valid standard or move action.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Origional Question:

Both combatants are aware of each other, noone is using Hide, or Bluff, or anything like that to try to remain hidden. ANY PCs opening a door looking for trouble arn't going to be surprised. The opponents must catch them off guard either with a skill, spell, or being somewhere unexpected (in a hidden passage, behind the PCs, etc). I think this is almost exactly like an example given in the PHB or DMG where orcs on one side of a door, and PCs on the other side, both hear and know each other are there. The PCs open the door and initiative is rolled.

 

[silentspace]

As others have said, thinking something might be there is not the same as being aware of something being there. I don't remember the example you're talking about, but it sounds like the PCs heard the orcs. Hence they are aware.

By the RAW, just thinking something might be there is not the same as being aware something is there. Otherwise, PCs would never ever be surprised, unless they are sleeping.

 

[Pielorinho]

As others have said, thinking something might be there is not the same as being aware of something being there. I don't remember the example you're talking about, but it sounds like the PCs heard the orcs. Hence they are aware.

One PCs hears they're there and tells the other PCs; the others are only aware of what the first PC is telling them, yet they're considered "aware." Are you comfortable putting PCs in the situation where they benefit from lying to one another about what noises they hear behind doors?

Daniel

 

[silentspace]

One PCs hears they're there and tells the other PCs; the others are only aware of what the first PC is telling them, yet they're considered "aware." Are you comfortable putting PCs in the situation where they benefit from lying to one another about what noises they hear behind doors?

Daniel

This line of reasoning will get you nowhere.

To answer questions like this and the questions to which it leads, I suggest leaving normal society and becoming a Zen Buddhist monk.

But perhaps you are sincere in your question. If you are, then my answer is the same as before. Thinking something might be there is not the same as being aware that something is there.

Besides, I don't think the other PCs who are told are aware by the RAW.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If PCs kick in a door in a dungeon, would you seriouisly consider making them surprised?

 

[Thanee]

If the opponents are invisible or something... sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

This line of reasoning will get you nowhere.

To answer questions like this and the questions to which it leads, I suggest leaving normal society and becoming a Zen Buddhist monk.

Yeah, but I'll be a monk 20!

But perhaps you are sincere in your question. If you are, then my answer is the same as before. Thinking something might be there is not the same as being aware that something is there.

Besides, I don't think the other PCs who are told are aware by the RAW.

I'm sort of sincere in my question: I'm asking it to demonstrate what I see to be a flaw in your interpretation.

You say that "thinking something might be there is not the same as being aware that something is there." This seems to imply that, when the rogue tells the party she hears something in the next room over and gets everyone ready for the attack, nobody except her may act during the surprise round, no matter how much detail she provides them. That seems highly counterintuitive to me, and makes scouts much less useful.

But let's say that's true. Shouldn't, then, the wizard cast "ghost sound" in order to make some noises appear to come from behind the door, such that everyone in the party is "aware" of the creatures behind the door?

Again, this is absurd; but it is the product of the rules, in my opinion, if interpreted in this fashion. Instead of using the rules to encourage people to engage in absurd behavior, I'd far rather interpret the rules in such a manner as to encourage reasonable behavior.

Daniel