Surprise or no surprise?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Of course not.

But if we allow people to "suppose" there are enemies on the other side of the door, without any way to verify that, we're left with an equally large problem.

There's a difference between "suppose" and "believe". If they believe that something is on the other side of the door, they'll act as if they know that there's something on the other side (since the difference between belief and knowledge is simply empirical verification). If they believe incorrectly, they'll probably be surprised, since reality isn't working out as they had believed it would.

 

[MoonZar]

In combat, if both sides are "aware" of each other, then the DM and players go to initiative and there is no "surprise" round. Does this following scenario count as being "aware" of the enemy:

Approximately 5 weeks ago (in game time), the party had entered a room through a secret door and encountered 2 iron golems and a spectre. They fled the fight. Then, the party returned to the room 5 week later (last game session). They bypass the trap on the secret door and open it. The golems are still there and the party is ambushed. The spectre has the ability to detect the presence of any living thing within 90', so it had plenty of warning that the party was at the door and commanded the golem to breathe gas as soon as the door was opened. Makes sense to me.

One of the players argued that the golems should not have gotten a surprise action, because *both* parties were aware of each others presence. Now, this time around, the party did NOT detect the presence of the golems or the spectre (no detect evil, no detect golems, no spot checks, no listen checks, nothing to determine the presence of the creatures). The party was just "assuming" that the same enemies were there from before (5 weeks ago).

So, does this scenario qualify as the "party is aware of the enemy"?

You could give them a bonus to spot and listen if they could know where the enemy are, if they fail, they obviously are surprise.

With the logic of the players, they would never be surprise, because most of the time we are assuming that something is in the room.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

With the logic of the players, they would never be surprise, because most of the time we are assuming that something is in the room.

Is that really so crazy in this case?

Realistically speaking, if you have sword in hand and are mentally ready for a fight, just because I know you are on the other side of that door, does that mean I should automatically get Surprise and therefore an extra attack on you? Considering that Initiative starts at the exact moment the door is open, should I be able to automatically and unfailingly react to the door being open faster than you?

I have the advantage of the lay of battlefield. You have the advantage of knowing exactly when that door will be opened. Seems to me like those should more or less cancel each other out. I can see throwing a minor Intitiative mod one way or the other, but a Surprise round seems like massive overkill in this case.

I think there are three factors that should be weighed to adjudicate Suprise:

(1) Awareness: What have you directly detected? What creatures can you observe now?

(2) Expectation: Are you mentally prepared for the combat will/might unfold? What do you think is about to happen?

(3) Initiator: Whose action is precipitating the combat? Is that person an ally who is coordinating with me actively?

As a rough rule of thumb, if you can say you have 2 of 3 on that list to your credit you probably should not be Surprised.

As a practical matter PCs should be presumed to be mentally ready for a fight pretty much all the time (condition #2). To do otherwise means that the DM is roleplaying the PC for the player ("It seems to me your PC was thinking ____.") or potentially punishing good roleplaying.

 

[Pielorinho]

I think there are three factors that should be weighed to adjudicate Suprise:

(1) Awareness: What have you directly detected? What creatures can you observe now?

(2) Expectation: Are you mentally prepared for the combat will/might unfold? What do you think is about to happen?

(3) Initiator: Whose action is precipitating the combat? Is that person an ally who is coordinating with me actively?

As a rough rule of thumb, if you can say you have 2 of 3 on that list to your credit you probably should not be Surprised.

I like this! Surprise should be, IMO, the exception rather than the rule. While I wouldn't allow a player to say, "Thog ALWAYS ready for attack whenever Thog awake!" I'm happy to consider a character ready at specific points in time. If a player says to me (in essence), "Thog hefts axe ready for an attack," then it'd be poor form on my part to say, "Sorry, Thog--you're surprised, and have to sit there looking stupid for the surprise round while the bad guys whale on you, and only then roll initiative."

If the bad guys really want to ambush Thog, they'll wait a round or five until he drops his defenses, and THEN attack. Or they'll attack from hiding.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

That's a good list, R.C. !

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The net result is that PCs will rarely be surprised when they kick in the door unless the opponents are hidden. I consider that a good thing.

If the Spectre wants to Surprise the PCs, he should move to the door undetected (#1), wait until they are right next to the door (getting them bunched together to maximize the AoE), then open the door himself to precipitate combat (#3), and the golems can breathe on everyone during the Surprise round. I would give everyone a Listen check to hear the Spectre and golems move into position, but it is going to be a pretty high DC through a door.

 

[Nail]

Problem, R.C.:

"Incorporeal Subtype: .....An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be."

So only the golems would be heard. (A minor point.)

 

[KarinsDad]

The net result is that PCs will rarely be surprised when they kick in the door unless the opponents are hidden. I consider that a good thing.

If the Spectre wants to Surprise the PCs, he should move to the door undetected (#1), wait until they are right next to the door (getting them bunched together to maximize the AoE), then open the door himself to precipitate combat (#3), and the golems can breathe on everyone during the Surprise round. I would give everyone a Listen check to hear the Spectre and golems move into position, but it is going to be a pretty high DC through a door.

This is kind of silly.

The Spectre has the Detect ability up, so he should pretty much know exactly when the PCs might open the door (i.e. when they get right next to it more or less).


The other thing that you allow with your position here of "even though the enemy on the other side of the door knows we are here, but we do not know they are here, hence, they cannot suprise us" philosophy is that at least one character did an action to open the door in the first place.

With no surprise possible, you are saying that this PC effectively WINS surprise over everyone else. On his surprise round, he did one action: opening the door.

Hence, your philosophy is one of the PC opening the door always gets the equivalent of a surprise action (i.e. opening the door), even over his fellow teammates (who do not get the equivalent of a surprise round action).


I think the case of the Spectre is somewhat unique. It is totally aware of the PCs and their locations. This, to me, indicates that it should have an edge over them in this situation. The "awareness" rule in RAW (i.e. preparing actions rounds ahead of time and then getting a standard action before unaware opponents) handles this correctly.

Your "characters are almost never surprised, especially if there is a door in the way" philosophy does not. IMO.

It might be reasonable for situations where the NPCs behind the door cannot see or detect the PCs, but not for ones where they can.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Opening the door occurs out of combat, so it does not occur in some kind of pseudo-surprise round. The door is opened, then initiative is rolled. The character who opened the door can go immediately if he rolls well or last if he rolls poorly. It in no way relates to surprise. If the wraith really wants to catch them off guard, he should attack through the door before it is opened or outside of the room where the PCs are headed. In other words, the wraith is not initiating combat, so giving him a surprise round makes no sense. He is simply waiting for the PCs to do so instead.

 

[Pielorinho]

With no surprise possible, you are saying that this PC effectively WINS surprise over everyone else. On his surprise round, he did one action: opening the door.

Keep in mind that during a surprise round, only people who are not surprised may act. Everyone else stands there looking foolish.

Are you claiming that Ridley's interpretation prevents the wraith from doing anything while the PC is opening the door? Are you claiming that the other PCs in the party may not be taking other actions simultaneous with the door's opening (e.g., casting mage armor, drawing a sword, drinking a potion, etc.)?

I'm guessing you're not making such claims, but if you're not, I'm not sure how you're concluding that only the door-opener acts during a surprise round.

Daniel