Surprise or no surprise?

[Thanee]

In other words, the spectre is not initiating combat, so giving it a surprise round makes no sense. It is simply waiting for the PCs to do so instead.

Exactly.

Combat only starts, if there actually is a combat.

The spectre is definitely not surprised because of its ability, but in order to use it to its advantage, it needs to become active not reactive.

Bye
Thanee

 

[boredgremlin]

In combat, if both sides are "aware" of each other, then the DM and players go to initiative and there is no "surprise" round. Does this following scenario count as being "aware" of the enemy:

Approximately 5 weeks ago (in game time), the party had entered a room through a secret door and encountered 2 iron golems and a spectre. They fled the fight. Then, the party returned to the room 5 week later (last game session). They bypass the trap on the secret door and open it. The golems are still there and the party is ambushed. The spectre has the ability to detect the presence of any living thing within 90', so it had plenty of warning that the party was at the door and commanded the golem to breathe gas as soon as the door was opened. Makes sense to me.

One of the players argued that the golems should not have gotten a surprise action, because *both* parties were aware of each others presence. Now, this time around, the party did NOT detect the presence of the golems or the spectre (no detect evil, no detect golems, no spot checks, no listen checks, nothing to determine the presence of the creatures). The party was just "assuming" that the same enemies were there from before (5 weeks ago).

So, does this scenario qualify as the "party is aware of the enemy"?

I would say no. The golems and especially the spectre could very well have moved in the 5 weeks. There is no way for the players to have been sure they were still there.

 

[MoonZar]

Is that really so crazy in this case?

Realistically speaking, if you have sword in hand and are mentally ready for a fight, just because I know you are on the other side of that door, does that mean I should automatically get Surprise and therefore an extra attack on you? Considering that Initiative starts at the exact moment the door is open, should I be able to automatically and unfailingly react to the door being open faster than you?

I have the advantage of the lay of battlefield. You have the advantage of knowing exactly when that door will be opened. Seems to me like those should more or less cancel each other out. I can see throwing a minor Intitiative mod one way or the other, but a Surprise round seems like massive overkill in this case.

I think there are three factors that should be weighed to adjudicate Suprise:

(1) Awareness: What have you directly detected? What creatures can you observe now?

(2) Expectation: Are you mentally prepared for the combat will/might unfold? What do you think is about to happen?

(3) Initiator: Whose action is precipitating the combat? Is that person an ally who is coordinating with me actively?

As a rough rule of thumb, if you can say you have 2 of 3 on that list to your credit you probably should not be Surprised.

As a practical matter PCs should be presumed to be mentally ready for a fight pretty much all the time (condition #2). To do otherwise means that the DM is roleplaying the PC for the player ("It seems to me your PC was thinking ____.") or potentially punishing good roleplaying.

I think that the rules are not logical at all with the surprise round and flat foot rules. I play with a house rules in my campaign that say if someone is ready to fight and known exactly where are the enemy in the next room, he won't be surprise or flat foot regardless of iniative and spot/listen check...

 

[KarinsDad]

Opening the door occurs out of combat, so it does not occur in some kind of pseudo-surprise round. The door is opened, then initiative is rolled. The character who opened the door can go immediately if he rolls well or last if he rolls poorly. It in no way relates to surprise. If the wraith really wants to catch them off guard, he should attack through the door before it is opened or outside of the room where the PCs are headed. In other words, the wraith is not initiating combat, so giving him a surprise round makes no sense. He is simply waiting for the PCs to do so instead.

Not according to the DMG.

There, the side with awareness not only can prepare actions, it also gets a free standard combat action BEFORE the other side.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm guessing you're not making such claims, but if you're not, I'm not sure how you're concluding that only the door-opener acts during a surprise round.

I'm stating that it is effectively the same as a surprise round for the character opening the door.

Nobody (according to RC's position) can do anything combat related until the character opening the door opens the door. Hence, that character controls when combat starts, even though he is unaware that combat is about to start.

But, that is not how the DMG reads on aware opponents (i.e. the Spectre) versus unaware opponents (i.e. the PCs).

RC's position here is not RAW. RAW has a rule for this very situation. The Spectre gets a free standard action before combat starts because the Spectre is aware.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Not according to the DMG.

There, the side with awareness not only can prepare actions, it also gets a free standard combat action BEFORE the other side.

That is not really what the DMG says.

The DMG referes to a standard action before the unaware can act. It is clearly refering to what we have been calling the Surprise round. Nothing mysterious there.

According to the DMG, if you are aware of your opponent and they are not aware of you, you may take preparatory actions. Nothing mysterious there either. This is a straightforward notification of the beginning of an encounter, e.g. "A few hours into the mornings journey, the Ranger hears a noise."

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

RC's position here is not RAW. RAW has a rule for this very situation. The Spectre gets a free standard action before combat starts because the Spectre is aware.

The RAW is very ambiguous as to what constitutes awareness. The RAW gives no guidance on whether seeing someone in a room 5 weeks ago and correctly surmising they are still there counts as awareness. You greatly exagerate the strength of your position if you are leaning on the RAW in this manner.

(I would further add that I do not believe your own position is consistent with the RAW on the larger issue, given that you have suggested that unidentified noises do not count as awareness. That appears to contradict the PHB.)

You are correct insofar as my position is not RAW.

If we take the RAW at face value, we are stuck with scenarios where an "aware" creature that understands nothing about the danger it is soon to face will unfailingly gain a free attack (Surprise) against an "unaware" creature who has otherwise perfect knowledge (the layout of the battlefield, resources of both sides in the coming battle, total control over the moment combat will ensue, etc.)

As I see it, the problem cannot be solved by restricting the definition of awareness (as you yourself have suggested). What is needed is to extend the concept of awareness. I prefer to do this by splitting the issue into two rough categories so that we can have two workable definitions (Awareness and Expectation) to replace one hopelessly vague definition. I further add who initiates the combat as a relevant factor both because it makes sense and it clears up some timing issues when there are concealed combatants.

My guidelines are not RAW, but they do appear to be consistent will all the examples included in the RAW. Your interpretation of the RAW does not appear to be consistent with the RAW with respect to the larger issue and a specific example in the PHB (although it is consistent with respect to the specific scenario involving the spectre).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Nobody (according to RC's position) can do anything combat related until the character opening the door opens the door. Hence, that character controls when combat starts, even though he is unaware that combat is about to start.

I would like to clarify a point.

I never forbid "combat related" actions. If a creature thinks there is going to be a fight soon, they are welcome to cast all the spells, drink all the potions, etc. that they would like.

One of the things I am against is what I view as gaming the Initiative system while there is no combat taking place. It boils down to a kind of metagaming. Creatures do not have Readied Actions outside of Initiative. They have actions. They have intentions. Readied Actions cause enough confusion within a strict Initiative system; abusing the concept outside of combat is guaranteed to yield haphazard results.

(And by "combat" I do not necessary mean fighting, but at least the plausible potential for fighting or some other kind of conflict.)

I would also point out that the usage of the phrase "unaware that combat is about to start" here as a description of my position is a bit odd because one can logically be both "aware that combat is about to start" and "unaware" according the the definitions given by KarinsDad and the RAW. My position does not confound these two ideas.

 

[Ovinomancer]

As to the original question, it might be helpful to look at an adjusted situation: what if the spectre did not detect the party?

Would the party smashing down the door with sword and spell a-flyin be a surprise to the spectre and his golem buddies? I would say yes. Then the spectre's awareness (and his sharing of awareness with the golems) would only remove that surprise, not give them suprise over the party.

Now, if the spectre enacted a cunning plan involving the golems yanking open the door the moment the party reached it while the spectre slipped through the walls to attack from the rear, then that would be a surprise to the party. IMHO.

 

[Ovinomancer]

slightly off topic

I have a house rule that creatures with '--' INT cannot be surprised. Period. The ability to think is required in order to be momentarily taken aback by unexpected events. '--' INT creatures cannot think, only react to stimulus with predetermined actions.

I base this opinion partly on the fact that, after being around them for 25 years, I have never suprised a computer. Ever.