Surprise or no surprise?

[boredgremlin]

According to the rules its probably an initiative with the golems readying actions for when the door opens because of the specters warning. Assuming of course that the spectre can command the golems and isnt just hanging out there. Effectively letting them go first no matter what the PC's initiative was.
However as a DM many situations are either unclear in the RAW or frankly the RAW is stupid. In this case the PC's are pretty sure the enemy is somewhere on the other side of the door. But they dont know where in that room or that the monsters are aware of thier approach. On the other hand the monsters know exactly where the PC's are and that they stopped in front of the door. The spectre is bright enough to know that means they are coming in and warn his cohorts.
So while the PC's think they know the situation and placement they arent sure, and the spectre at least must have moved somewhat in 5 weeks. The monsters know exactly where the PC's are and what they are doing. Common sense says the monsters can ready an action. Surprise is questionable, reading over this i have changed my mind and figured no surprise, but yes readied actions to go as soon as the door opens.

 

[Thanee]

So, everyone (the party and the monsters) has readied actions then?

And it what order are they resolved?

Fun!

Hey! I have an idea.
Why not roll initiative to see in what order those readied actions get to be resolved!

Bye
Thanee

 

[boredgremlin]

No, the party only thinks they know where the baddies are. Its been over a month here. Even golems move sometimes. Besides as an army ranger i trained in entry techniques. The first person kicks open the door and steps aside, the next two move in and go to each corner on the wall the door is on. Others file in and go from side to side. If your surprising the people in the room, even a little this is very effective. In the real world no one can sense you through a wall. But picture yourself in the monsters place here.
You know the PC's are right on the other side of the door, you breathe in and prepare your poison breath. The doorknob starts turning, or the door blasts in. You knew it was gonna happen. Your ready. The door disapears and immediately you loose the poison breath your holding in.
The rules are unclear, we have seen that just reading this thread, so i wont quate them. This is a GM call. Pure and simple. I would say because the constructs know there is an enemy right about to open the door they readied an action as per the rules. No surprise, the PC's know there might be danger there and are ready for it. But they dont know the danger knows about them. Thats important. The PC's probably assume they will catch the monsters off gaurd. They wont. Most races move 30ft a round, the spectre can sense 90 ft. That means the monsters have 18 second to prepare.
So no surprise, the monsters readied actions go, then the players. No flat footed and after the first round initiative is normal. But i would assume the people who are totally aware of thier opponents with time to prepare should be able to ready an action. No matter what RAW might or might not say some common sense has to rule.

 

[Thanee]

You knew it was gonna happen. Your ready. The door disapears and immediately you loose the poison breath your holding in.

And where exactly did you know the exact moment the door opens from?

And why can't the ones outside do the same, just ready when the door opens to attack whatever comes into view?

The party even knows *when* the door opens... they don't have to *react* to that moment.

The rules are unclear, ...

Nah, the rules are absolutely clear about ready actions. They are not possible outside combat.

The only question is, whether there is a surprise round and who is allowed to act then.

I would say because the constructs know there is an enemy right about to open the door they readied an action as per the rules.

Again, as per the rules, there are no readied actions outside combat.

No surprise, the PC's know there might be danger there and are ready for it.

That's where I agree with you. I also think that it would be silly to assume, the monsters surprise the party; and likewise, because of the spectre's ability, the monsters are not surprised either.

Therefore, you simply roll initiative and start combat as normal.

Bye
Thanee

 

[boredgremlin]

The spectre. It senses life at 90ft. There is no init. One side knows exactly where the other is and what they are doing. The other is only guessing. Fact beats guesswork any day.

 

[KarinsDad]

I would like to clarify a point.

I never forbid "combat related" actions. If a creature thinks there is going to be a fight soon, they are welcome to cast all the spells, drink all the potions, etc. that they would like.

Sorry. I should have said combat actions as opposed to combat related actions.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'm stating that it is effectively the same as a surprise round for the character opening the door.

Nobody (according to RC's position) can do anything combat related until the character opening the door opens the door. Hence, that character controls when combat starts, even though he is unaware that combat is about to start.

I'd appreciate clarification, in the form of yes/no answers to these two questions:

1) Are you claiming that Ridley's interpretation prevents the wraith from doing anything while the PC is opening the door?
2) Are you claiming that the other PCs in the party may not be taking other actions simultaneous with the door's opening (e.g., casting mage armor, drawing a sword, drinking a potion, etc.)?

I think I'm not understanding your position, and yes/no answers to these questions would help me.

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Thanee]

The spectre. It senses life at 90ft. There is no init. One side knows exactly where the other is and what they are doing. The other is only guessing. Fact beats guesswork any day.

But that's still no explanation to where the ready action comes from, when there is no initiative.

Ready is a special initiative action. Without initiative there is no ready.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd appreciate clarification, in the form of yes/no answers to these two questions:

1) Are you claiming that Ridley's interpretation prevents the wraith from doing anything while the PC is opening the door?
2) Are you claiming that the other PCs in the party may not be taking other actions simultaneous with the door's opening (e.g., casting mage armor, drawing a sword, drinking a potion, etc.)?

Don't be silly.

I'm stating that RC's position is that both sides are aware when that is not the case.

 

[KarinsDad]

But that's still no explanation to where the ready action comes from, when there is no initiative.

Ready is a special initiative action. Without initiative there is no ready.

There is no ready action until the door opens. Up until that point in time, it was merely preparatory actions.

Then, the aware side (Spectre) can ready if it wants because it gets a free Standard action.

The unaware side gets to wait for combat to start.


Suspicious is not equal to aware.