Surprise or no surprise?

[Thanee]

Opposed Disguise Checks should rarely be used for anything unless the PCs attention is drawn to the disguised NPC.

Well, he's coming closer in order to put a knife in his target's ribs, I guess that counts as drawing attention (the coming closer part ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

No middle ground in either case?

Not without hiding and such.

The Spectre is totally aware of the party for many rounds and STILL can get caught flat-footed, even though he knows exactly when they come up to the door???

Right.

Because I don't see how being aware helps with reacting faster, once the door opens.

Everyone involved is prepared for a fight in that moment, it's just a matter of reflexes then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The Assassin waiting around the corner is a good example to consider, Karinsdad.

There are five notable differences between this case and the Spectre:

(A) The Assassin knows with great precision exactly when his intended victim will step around the corner. The Spectre does not know when the door will be opened.

(B) The victims of the Spectre expect combat.

(C) The victims of the Spectre are able to (or should be able to) control the timing of when the door opens to their advantage. "Psst. Everybody ready? 1-2-3!"

(D) The Assassin could step 5' and be the initiator.

(E) The victim is not performing an action that is precipitating combat in the sense we speak of actions in the RAW. Strolling might be called an action during Initiative, but outside of combat it is just an activity.

Regarding the last point, I draw a distinction between actions and activities. The RAW tracks the PCs in three different ways:
(1) Initiative: Precisely defined and timed actions using the combat rules and the Initiative system.
(2) Preparatory time/rounds: Time outside of Initiative where the precise order of actions is largely irrelevant but the DM needs to roughly track who is doing what because combat may be imminent. These are "preparatory" rounds as described by the DMG, and it is how actions are tracked at the beginning of an encounter before Initiative (if such a timeframe is relevant).
(3) Narrative time: When there no time pressure and the players simply describe what they are doing in general terms. ("We take the path heading south. The Ranger and Rogue 50' in front.")

The Assassin's victim lives in narrative time. His activities would be described by a player with a normal story narrative.

The Assassin waits in preparatory time once the intended victim detected, up until the moment the Assassin could strike.

I would just give the Assassin Surprise. There is a clearcut moment in time that the victim is unaware and the Assassin could plausibly attack. The fact is he could say "I take a 5' step and throw my dagger" is sufficient reason to precipitate Initiative.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, he's coming closer in order to put a knife in his target's ribs, I guess that counts as drawing attention (the coming closer part ).

The point is that in a city of thousands of people, everyone is coming closer as they walk past.

This is not drawing attention to yourself, this is doing what everyone else is doing and is the opposite of drawing attention to yourself.

 

[Thanee]

Of course, it depends on the situation.

I was thinking about a not so crowded area. In a crowd there wouldn't even be a roll.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Using "automatically" is a bit misleading. He did have to win an opposed check to get surprise, just like someone who wins an opposed Spot/Hide check "automatically" gets a surprise round, or someone who beats someone else's initiative "automatically" gets to go first.

Yes and no. There are ways to set up the encounter such that it is not obvious there is any check whatsoever. A Drow Assassin polymorphed into Human form is unambiguously average in appearance if she chooses not to lug around a suspicious amount of gear. What is there to Spot?

What constitutes awareness? Is seeing the other person always awareness or not?

 

[Thanee]

What is there to Spot?

Well, the disguise... Polymorph grants a +10 bonus to Disguise.

Admittedly, it's a bit silly to use it that way, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

What constitutes awareness? Is seeing the other person always awareness or not?

No. You need to see/sense and realize that there is any danger.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The Spectre is totally aware of the party for many rounds and STILL can get caught flat-footed, even though he knows exactly when they come up to the door???

How would you handle two hostile parties warily facing each other off for a few minutes when negotiations break down? If you follow the letter of the RAW everyone's Readied Action goes off in a contradictory mess. The RAW fails.

We have a mechanic for deciding what order actions take place in when the playing field is roughly level and everyone wants to go first: Roll for Initiative.

I do empathize with your point about the Spectre. The other side of the coin is that the Initiative mechanics allow for the possibility that everyone reacts to the door being open before the person who opened the door. That is neither more nor less peculiar. The Initiative system by its nature is inherently fair and unfair to everyone.

 

[kanithardm]

With the input from fellow players (which is why we are here, right? ), I think this is how it should have gone:

1) Spectre knows the party is outside the door about to come in.
2) The Spectre can do something for at least a round or 2 before the party barges in.
3) Spectre commands the golems to ready an action to breathe their gas cloud.
4) Party options the door and everyone rolls initiative.
5) Golems readies action foes off which puts them at the "highest" iniative.
6) The rest of the combat plays out as per initiative.

The spectre could even had readied an action also.

This is true and I would also like to point out that if they assume the monsters are there, then they will be prepared and ready. But it is all up to the DM in the end.