Surprise or no surprise?

[Pielorinho]

Don't be silly.

I'm stating that RC's position is that both sides are aware when that is not the case.

Eh? I'm really not trying to be silly. Do you mean by that that your answers to both questions are "no"?

Daniel

 

[boredgremlin]

But that's still no explanation to where the ready action comes from, when there is no initiative.

Ready is a special initiative action. Without initiative there is no ready.

Bye
Thanee

True RAW fails here. Look at all the rules lawyer posts on both sides of this thread. Its open to interpretation. Sometimes the GM just has to say that such and such makes sense so thats how it is. If it happens too often with players disagreeing you lose players.
If you tell a good story and keep the players engaged then you could say the moon is coming to eat them and what are they gonna do? They might piss and moan a little. But you have a good engaging story that keeps them guessin and on the edge of thier seat the whole game.
I have focused on storytellling for years now, i fudge rolls (either way) to enhane the story. For me this rule makes more sense so monsters would get a readied action.

 

[Thanee]

Its open to interpretation.

Certainly.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Then, the aware side (Spectre) can ready if it wants because it gets a free Standard action.

The spectre gets a surprise round then, yes? And in the surprise round, it can ready.

That would work, I wouldn't do it that way, but it certainly could be done that way without breaking the rules for ready actions.


To me the question is not about suspicion or awareness, but at what point combat starts and how the situation is at this point. It doesn't matter what was before.

That is, after the door has been opened. At this point, both sides are aware of each other, so both sides get to act. Therefore, I'd not consider surprise in this scenario.

The spectre has the option to surprise the party, because it can sense them, but then it would have to actively do this, not just wait for them to open the door. At this point it forfeits that advantage and has to roll initiative like everyone else, because it is merely reacting to the party's actions now.

So, basically, the encounter starts with the spectre becoming aware of the party, but combat only starts after the door is opened. The spectre could do all sorts of things in the meantime (not ready, of course), but that won't speed up its reactions, once the door opens. Everyone is on the same level in that moment.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Sorry. I should have said combat actions as opposed to combat related actions.

Hey, that is really below the belt, apologizing and being polite, after how rude I had been earlier in the thread!

And sorry about that earlier petulance. (Must learn learn to walk away from the keyboard when life gets too hectic and stressful.)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I'm stating that RC's position is that both sides are aware when that is not the case.

I would put it another way.

My reading of the RAW is that the Spectre is aware. Whether the party is aware, or even the golems are aware is wide open to interpretation.

Yes, the golems' status is ambiguous because we have the can of worms whether X telling Y makes Y aware. What if X's information is incorrect? What if X is lying but the lie turns out to be true? What if X's information is very vague?

If say so without precise & accurate details is sufficient ("Hey golems, someone is coming.") then that suggests that the party's information still counts. Is there an expiration date on completely accurate information?

What if the party cleric used Detect Evil and the spectre popped up on the radar? Does that constitute awareness? To the whole party if they are informed? Again, what if information is misleading? What if the informer purposefully misleads? (BTW I do see this last one in actual play when a PC with a monopoly on a source of information wants to push the party into a certain direction.)

The RAW does not say.

My position is that the RAW works in limited situations but not in others, and that one is better off ditching the RAW and starting over. Use the RAW for inspiration.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an aside to the main thrust of my argument...

I would further add that the suggestion that spectre and golems could have moved in 5 weeks a bit odd. Theorectically, yes. But in your vanilla kick-in-the-door dungeon crawl the undead and constructs have been there 100 years. And they will still be there in a 100 years if the PCs do not take them out.

If repositioning was practical, why didn't the spectre and golems move?

If the spectre was not being handed a gimme by the DM, it would be apparent that either the spectre could not move, or that it has the strategic initiative of the average garden slug.

Why not just have a golem open the door and attack the PCs while they are clustered in the hall? The main reason not too is if sitting on your hands and waiting for the party to get themselves surprised were a practical strategy.

(Please do not take this as a criticism of Space Coyote himself. He is clearly being a very conscientious DM. I just happen to disagree with his particular ruling on this matter.)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Just to throw another wrench into the works...

What about an Assassin expertly disguised as a beggar on the Street? Or someone Polymorphed into an average member of the species, etc.?

He is standing there in plain sight on a busy street. No Spot or Listen roll necessary.

Are you aware or not?

If awareness means awareness of actual danger without ambiguity, then the Assassin automatically gets Surprise. He can just waltz up and put a knife between your ribs.

The other possibility is that the Assassin can never get Surprise because you see them. You have sensory information of his presence and therefore are aware. That is equally strange.

The RAW does not really handle this situtation. We just have to start making things up.

My answer would be:
(1) Can you see the Assassin? Yes.
(2) Are you expecting combat? Sort of, yes. You are a paranoid adventurer.
(3) Are you initiating combat? No.
Result: 2 of 3. So you cannot be surprised by default.
If the Assassin wants a Surprise round the burden is on him get you off guard. The obvious way to do this is use Bluff or some other skill to fool you.

 

[Pielorinho]

. We just have to start making things up.

My answer would be:
(1) Can you see the Assassin? Yes.
(2) Are you expecting combat? Sort of, yes. You are a paranoid adventurer.
(3) Are you initiating combat? No.
Result: 2 of 3. So you cannot be surprised by default.
If the Assassin wants a Surprise round the burden is on him get you off guard. The obvious way to do this is use Bluff or some other skill to fool you.

Cool example! However, I'd disagree with #2 in most cases. Unless the player is constantly saying, "Who's on the street? I'm walking down the side of the street with one hand on my sword hilt" and so forth, I'm going to assume that he's capable of walking down a street without looking like a total freak. In a city of any size, this means that he's got to ignore the vast majority of people he sees. I'd rule that the assassin gets a surprise round (although I'd probably allow a spot-vs-disguise check, or a sense-motive-vs-bluff check, to make sure the assassin keeps the schtick going long enough).

On a relatively empty street, I'd reverse this ruling and say that the assassin had to go to a lot more trouble to fool the PCs.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

The assassin example is very simple. It's an opposed contest vs. the assassin's disguise skill to see, whether anyone is aware.

The assassin could get a surprise round, if noone was suspecting (i.e. made the roll) anything.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

The assassin example is very simple. It's an opposed contest vs. the assassin's disguise skill to see, whether anyone is aware.

So how do you decide this line from the disguise skill?

If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks.

I'd be tempted to require a bluff check, but that might be redundant, considering the synergy bonus you get on your disguise check for having ranks in bluff. I dunno what the answer would be.

Still, overall I think that RC's guidelines are useful here, even if we disagree on how #2 would be answered.

Daniel