Surprise or no surprise?

[KarinsDad]

To me the question is not about suspicion or awareness, but at what point combat starts and how the situation is at this point. It doesn't matter what was before.

That is, after the door has been opened. At this point, both sides are aware of each other, so both sides get to act. Therefore, I'd not consider surprise in this scenario.

The spectre has the option to surprise the party, because it can sense them, but then it would have to actively do this, not just wait for them to open the door. At this point it forfeits that advantage and has to roll initiative like everyone else, because it is merely reacting to the party's actions now.

So, basically, the encounter starts with the spectre becoming aware of the party, but combat only starts after the door is opened. The spectre could do all sorts of things in the meantime (not ready, of course), but that won't speed up its reactions, once the door opens. Everyone is on the same level in that moment.

The assassin is around the corner. He has Detect Magic up, so he knows the exact position of his target. The target walks past the corner, the assassin gets a standard action for a) being aware and b) his target being unaware: according to RAW.

So, he stops concentrating on his Detect Magic spell (free action) and fires his bow (standard action).

According to a philosophy that you cannot initiate combat until the target gets into position (e.g. opens the door, whatever) and once he gets into position, he is always entitled to automatically spot his opponent, the assassin in this case would not get a surprise round.

The assassin is watching his target slowly come into view and is ready. His opponent is clueless, but suddenly becomes the Flash. To me, this is not reasonable.

Even giving the target a Spot roll is really not that reasonable unless the DC is real high or unless the target is somewhat suspicious.

But, getting rid of the surprise round completely in the Spectre case is like getting rid of it completely in this Assassin case.


An alternative in the Spectre case is to give the PC who opens the door a moderate DC Spot roll and the other PCs a real high DC Spot roll. That way, some of them have a chance to act on the Surprise round, but only the PC who opened the door has a good chance of acting on the Surprise round.

 

[Thanee]

The assassin is around the corner. He has Detect Magic up, so he knows the exact position of his target. The target walks past the corner, the assassin gets a standard action for a) being aware and b) his target being unaware: according to RAW.

So, he stops concentrating on his Detect Magic spell (free action) and fires his bow (standard action).

I totally agree with this and it is in no way against what I have said above.
Would do it exactly the same. Surprise round for the assassin, that is.

But, getting rid of the surprise round completely in the Spectre case is like getting rid of it completely in this Assassin case.

No. Wanna know why?

Because the spectre does not initiate combat, the party does, by opening the door.

The assassin however, does initiate combat, against a target, which is completely unaware/unsuspicious/whatever.

At least, that's how I see it.
It's not like this is the only way to handle the situation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The assassin example is very simple. It's an opposed contest vs. the assassin's disguise skill to see, whether anyone is aware.

The assassin could get a surprise round, if noone was suspecting (i.e. made the roll) anything.

You could do it that way. A competent Assassin will defeat even an Elven Ranger with the right flavor of Favored Enemy in that opposed check 9 times out of 10 (or better). Or he could be Polymorph into an average example of the species, and there would be nothing out of place to Spot. But those are just details.

I am more interested in the bigger issue. If the Assassin wins the opposed check, does he automatically get Surprise?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I am more interested in the bigger issue. If the Assassin wins the opposed check, does he automatically get Surprise?

Using "automatically" is a bit misleading. He did have to win an opposed check to get surprise, just like someone who wins an opposed Spot/Hide check "automatically" gets a surprise round, or someone who beats someone else's initiative "automatically" gets to go first.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just to throw another wrench into the works...

What about an Assassin expertly disguised as a beggar on the Street? Or someone Polymorphed into an average member of the species, etc.?

He is standing there in plain sight on a busy street. No Spot or Listen roll necessary.

Are you aware or not?

If awareness means awareness of actual danger without ambiguity, then the Assassin automatically gets Surprise. He can just waltz up and put a knife between your ribs.

The other possibility is that the Assassin can never get Surprise because you see them. You have sensory information of his presence and therefore are aware. That is equally strange.

The RAW does not really handle this situtation. We just have to start making things up.

My answer would be:
(1) Can you see the Assassin? Yes.
(2) Are you expecting combat? Sort of, yes. You are a paranoid adventurer.
(3) Are you initiating combat? No.
Result: 2 of 3. So you cannot be surprised by default.
If the Assassin wants a Surprise round the burden is on him get you off guard. The obvious way to do this is use Bluff or some other skill to fool you.

I agree that you have to adjudicate here.

And, I would rule that #1 is Maybe and #2 is also Maybe.

Yes, you might be able to see the assassin, but if there are 20 people in that particular street, the fact that you are able to see the assassin at some point in time does not mean that he is going to attack you until you are no longer looking at him.

And, most characters are not expecting combat 24/7.


To me, if the Assassin is going to use a ranged weapon, your chances of not being surprised should be virtually non-existent. Spot check versus Hide (or even Sleight of Hand) at as much as +10 for extremely favorable conditions. Here, it is not so much that you are hiding (although you could be), it is that you are hiding your actions until they occur.

If he is going to use a melee weapon, then it should be a Move Silently versus Listen check with a bonus of +5 to Move Silently due to favorable conditions for the assassin (i.e. city street with multiple people on it, target not aware of imminent attack, etc.). Or, this could alternatively be a Spot versus a Sleight of Hand (again at +5 for favorable conditions) for him palming a weapon, and attacking as he walks past.

You make the roll, you are not surprised. You might still be flat-footed.

But, the further away the Assassin is, the more precautions he takes, and the smaller the weapon, the better his chances to get away with it. Any opposed check should be modified accordingly.

 

[Thanee]

IMHO yes.

That's what all the disguise stuff is for (in this case).

It's just like Hide vs Spot.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

No. Wanna know why?

Because the spectre does not initiate combat, the party does, by opening the door.

The assassin however, does initiate combat, against a target, which is completely unaware/unsuspicious/whatever.

You do not see how these are similar circumstances?

In one case, the party opens the door and the Spectre cannot attack until that happens.
In the other case, the target walks past the corner and the Assassin cannot attack until that happens.

Granted, the party is more suspicious, but if you rule based on events (e.g. opening the door, walking past the corner), then the situations are basically the same.

If you rule based on suspicion, then you must know the mindset of the PCs AND you must change your resolution ruling based on your current theory of that mindset.

PC: "No, no. I was walking down the street suspicious of everyone around me."
DM: "Uh huh."

 

[Thanee]

Granted, the party is more suspicious, but if you rule based on events (e.g. opening the door, walking past the corner), then the situations are basically the same.

The "suspicious" part (within reasonable limits, of course ) is the important difference to me.

In the spectre-case the party is combat-ready and expecting combat.

In the assassin-case the target is not suspecting trouble.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

IMHO yes.

That's what all the disguise stuff is for (in this case).

It's just like Hide vs Spot.

Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.

Opposed Disguise Checks should rarely be used for anything unless the PCs attention is drawn to the disguised NPC.

 

[KarinsDad]

The "suspicious" part (within reasonable limits, of course ) is the important difference to me.

In the spectre-case the party is combat-ready and expecting combat.

In the assassin-case the target is not suspecting trouble.

So due to this, you give auto-surprise in the one case and auto-no-surprise-possible in the other?

No middle ground in either case?


The Spectre is totally aware of the party for many rounds and STILL can get caught flat-footed, even though he knows exactly when they come up to the door???