Surprise or no surprise?

[ThirdWizard]

If the opponents are invisible or something... sure.

Bye
Thanee

lol, yes yes, or if they are hiding behind something. I must remember to qualify my statements more.

 

[Nail]

But let's say that's true. Shouldn't, then, the wizard cast "ghost sound" in order to make some noises appear to come from behind the door, such that everyone in the party is "aware" of the creatures behind the door?

Of course not.

But if we allow people to "suppose" there are enemies on the other side of the door, without any way to verify that, we're left with an equally large problem.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If the PCs are hanging out in their house, and some NPCs come rusing in, do you give the PCs a surprise round because the NPCs weren't sure the PCs were there?


I think of surprise as a much more uncommon occurance than most people it seems. A poll on how often surprise happens in their games would be interesting. I probably see a surprise round 1/5 or 1/7 encounters. So, yes, my PCs can "suppose" that there are enemies on the other side of a doorway and if there are enemies just standing around then there will be no surprise, no way, no how. Now, if said enemies are hiding or invisible () or they're actually behind the PCs where they arn't expecing them, then there can be a suprise round.

 

[Pielorinho]

Of course not.

But if we allow people to "suppose" there are enemies on the other side of the door, without any way to verify that, we're left with an equally large problem.

I don't see it as a problem at all: it simply means that, when you've got your game face on and you bust down a door, you're not surprised by the people on the other side of the door. That's not a problem.

You can still be surprised by:
-Ambushes during travel.
-Ambushes during rest.
-Ambushes from invisibility, darkness, or other sources where you can't initially see the attackers.
-Ambushes from teleportation.
-Ambushes from shopkeepers who turn out to know kung fu.

The problem with the interpretation of "no suprise round unless you've got direct sensory evidence of the enemy" is that it leads to all sorts of silly ways to subvert that criterion. The problem with the interpretation of "act in the surprise round if you believe there's gonna be fighting happening in that surprise round" is--what?

Daniel

 

[Nail]

The problem with the interpretation of "act in the surprise round if you believe there's gonna be fighting happening in that surprise round" is--what?

Readied actions outside of combat.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Readied actions outside of combat.

I do not understand. Just because you are allowed to participate in the Surprise round as a reward for being appropriately mentally prepared for whatever happens after the door opens, it does not mean you get Initiative-like actions outside of actual combat.

You could choose to play it that way, but there is no logical necessity to do so.

 

[Pielorinho]

Readied actions outside of combat.

First, as I said before, there's multiple discussions going on in this thread. The part you quoted is not related to my argument in favor of allowing limited readying of actions outside of combat: allowing actions during the surprise round in the circumstances above in no way requires allowing readied actions outside of combat. I apologize for the confusion.

Secondly, I don't think there are any serious problems caused by allowing the limited readied actions outside of combat .

Daniel

 

[Nail]

I apologize for the confusion.

..and I seem to be adding to it. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I very thoroughly agree that, in the original example, the PCs shouldn't precisely be surprised if they have good reason to suspect that the enemy is behind the door.

I'm also very keen on NOT starting combat before the door opens...readied actions are one of the largest sources of illogic and cheese in 3.x. One can, for instance, ready to cast a standard action spell at an enemy when said enemy begins casting a spell...and have YOURS go off first. Setting up situation where readied actions are likely to play a big impact is just bad DMing, IMHO.

On the other hand, we have to accept that opening a door takes some time and concentration. And this should be taken into account.

What *I* would do is this: A shortened 'surprise' round occurs as soon as the door opens...to represent wary creatures taking stock of the situation. Both sides get to roll initiative and act in this round. The door opener starts out in front with at least one hand free...effectively blocking partial charges. Still gives a bit of tactical defensive advantage to the golems, who just have to sit there after all. But not TOO much advantage.

 

[Shadowdweller]

With respect to the Generalized Door Situation, we have to recognize that battle-worn adventurers are probably going to be alert and wary when passing obstacles in a hostile environment. Since the PCs are generally playing the active role when in a dungeon, I don't think there should be many cases where they are surprised simply by finding an enemy on the other side of the door.

As a DM I tend to make snap judgements based on how alert the enemy on the other side is. They may have had a chance to make listen checks when the PCs were approaching. On the other hand, I tend to make use of prepared ambushes as well...with foes taking 10 or 20 on hide checks (setting up blinds, finding that PERFECT spot behind the table etc depending on the intelligence and/or patience of the foe) that can be difficult to make. An enemy might conceivably be hidden on the inside wall flanking the door. I'd STILL give the lead PC a chance to make a spot check before a surprise round occurred in this last case, however.

I also sometimes use surprise rounds in which both sides act (as above post)...particularly in stand-off situations or where there are set-up fortifications (archers behind overturned tables) to represent half reflexive actions and to keep high initiative rollers from gaining too much advantage.

Example: The party approaches a group of drow, the leader of whom tries to speak with the PCs. Both sides are definitely aware of each other, with weapons drawn and aimed. At some point during the speech, some PC or other attacks (ALWAYS happens).

How do you adjudicate surprise? Readied actions don't fit...particularly if you've chosen to enter initiative before combat begins. Because something like this might happen: Drow- "ready attacks on first PC to attack"; party- "ready attacks on first drow to attack". End result: Provoking PC who decides to make first attack goes LAST. Does the attacking PC get a surprise round when the enemy was wary? Do you roll initiative and chance enemy making multiple attacks before attacking PC?