Surprise or no surprise?

[Nail]

I'm not sure i follow you here. When would you use such a tactic as a DM? Since players are usually the aggressors (busting down doors and starting fights), I'd think they'd use this more often.
Daniel

You never have the NPC ambush the PCs?

Would you allow these ambushing NPCs ready an action to attack, even if they do not currently see ("are aware of") the PCs?

That question is at the core of this thread, no?

 

[Nail]

Yeah, but who gets to decide who an ally is?

Ulimately, the DM, as he controls the initaition of combat.

This "fake-fighting", in which no one actually fights, is not supported by the rules because: The rules give the "start combat" power to the DM, not the players. And then the DM has to use whatever common sense he can manage.

 

[Pielorinho]

You never have the NPC ambush the PCs?

Would you allow these ambushing NPCs ready an action to attack, even if they do not currently see ("are aware of") the PCs?

Absolutely I'd allow it. However:
1) The PCs, as I said, initiate combat far more often than the NPCs; and
2) Again, readying an action in the manner I've described means you forfeit your surprise round. Usually you're better off gaining a suprise round.

Ulimately, the DM, as he controls the initaition of combat.

This "fake-fighting", in which no one actually fights, is not supported by the rules because: The rules give the "start combat" power to the DM, not the players. And then the DM has to use whatever common sense he can manage.

On the contrary: if my players declare an attack action against another character, it'd be very poor DMing on my part not to require initiative rolls. While technically I might be able to do so (using "The Dm is always right,") that takes away a player's control of her character. I am loathe to do that.

I agree that the DM must use common sense, and that in this case common sense requires fudging the rules in one direction. I disagree that the best way to fudge the rules is to restrict character options.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

I'm simply arguing that the RAW lead to absurdities, and that we've got to apply some common sense to them in order to avoid the absurdities.

No arguement here!

But: just be sure your players share your version of "common sense". Given some players I've played with, that's not always the case. (And that's not to suggest that my "common sense" was more appropriate at the time. )

 

[Pielorinho]

The solution is simple. Don't allow this.

Just because you hear a noise does not make you aware. The noise might be an echo, or something totally unrelated.

Limit awareness to actually aware of an opponent that the character would perceive to be an opponent.

I'm still confused.

A rogue hears a party of orcs behind the door and says, "Guys, I can hear some orcs behind this door. Cleric, you open the door. I'm gonna shoot the first orc i see. Wizard, you fireball them. Fighter, you charge in." They then enact this plan. The orcs inside are unaware of them. Who gains a surprise round?

A rogue correctly believes there's a party of orcs beind the door, but does not hear any. He says, "Guys, I can hear some orcs behind this door. Cleric, you open the door. I'm gonna shoot the first orc i see. Wizard, you fireball them. Fighter, you charge in." They then enact this plan. The orcs inside are unaware of them. Who gains a surprise round?

Daniel

 

[Nail]

The two party members with the highest bluff checks listen at each door.
Both party members report hearing noises on the other side of the door, regardless of what they actually hear.
Everyone does their best to fail their "sense motive" checks.
The party is therefore not surprised.

Yet that's obviously ridiculous.

..but funny! (Surely the PCs would be getting progressively higher circumstance bonuses to their Sense Motive checks?)

If we look at the example of "awareness" in the DMG (3.5e), it actually uses the "hearing through a door" as an example of awareness.

Jozan the cleric hears the sounds of creatures moving beyond a door in a dungeon.....

 

[Nail]

if my players declare an attack action against another character, it'd be very poor DMing on my part not to require initiative rolls.

As long as there's an actual combat => no problem. If, instead, its a bunch of readied actions that have nothing to do with the PCs supposed opponent, but instead with some unknown newcomer.....

I disagree that the best way to fudge the rules is to restrict character options.

There are plenty of options. They just don't include Readied actions outside of combat. A Ftr 1 can't memorize druid spells, or research a wizard spell. (shrug) Are those restricted options?

 

[Nail]

A rogue hears a party of orcs behind the door and says, "Guys, I can hear some orcs behind this door. Cleric, you open the door. I'm gonna shoot the first orc i see. Wizard, you fireball them. Fighter, you charge in." They then enact this plan. The orcs inside are unaware of them. Who gains a surprise round?

The PCs.

A rogue correctly believes there's a party of orcs beind the door, but does not hear any. He says, "Guys, I can hear some orcs behind this door. Cleric, you open the door. I'm gonna shoot the first orc i see. Wizard, you fireball them. Fighter, you charge in." They then enact this plan. The orcs inside are unaware of them. Who gains a surprise round?

Depends.

Again: ultimately it's the DMs call, by RAW. There's no rule that says the PCs get to determine who's aware. There is a rule that says the DM determines awareness.

 

[Pielorinho]

Depends.

Again: ultimately it's the DMs call, by RAW.

On what would you make your decision? On whether they're just being silly?

My gut reaction is to say that they're NOT being silly: they're just trying to avoid having the rules tell them they'll be surprised in a situation where they clearly aren't surprised. So I'm likely to accommodate them.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

(The PCs are) just trying to avoid having the rules tell them they'll be surprised in a situation where they clearly aren't surprised. So I'm likely to accommodate them.

The rules do not tell them they'll be surprised in the situation you described (#2). At worst, combat starts without the surprise round, but sides roll initiative, and off they go. At best, the PCs might get a surprise round (depending on circumstances prior to this point).

Again: I'd imagine we'd be able to work this out at the table, should you and I be in a game together. But perhaps you'd best lay off the word "clearly".