Surprise or no surprise?

[moritheil]

Or to be more precise, that was your first & favored rules response. I guess I was reading too much into the speculations. Sorry about that.

I would say that DMs guessing what PCs are thinking is not exactly rare. I have seen a couple good DMs make the game go very badly when they made that mistake. The lesson I took away is that it is the player and only the player who is responsible for what the PC is thinking.

(We usually let other players play those PCs because it is too much of a pain for the DM.)

Ah yes, you have me there. Not a problem.

It is a pain sometimes. I would let other players do it, but I haven't been willing to force it upon other players thus far. I'll have to consider that, though.

Incidentally, Werk, I'm afraid I'm going to have to point out that in your example, if you say that the characters are aware of the golems and spectre but not the dire rat, then only the dire rat gets to act in the surprise round. I'm not sure what it can do to the PCs with the golem standing in the doorway, but perhaps it can try to Intimidate or something.

 

[KarinsDad]

The spectre cannot attack the party until the door is opened. If he cannot attack, then we are outside of Initiative. If we are outside of Initiative there no possibility of Readying.

Except that this is not the rule.

The rule is:

"An encounter can begin in one of three situations:
One side becomes aware of the other and thus can act first."

The spectre is aware. He can act. He does not HAVE to be able to attack, just act. Thus, he can act AND he can initiate combat. Since he is the only one aware, he gets a surprise round. On his surprise round, he orders the Golems to prepare. They are now also aware and get actions to ready in round one.

A few rounds later, the party arrives. They too are aware (assuming they remembered the encounter), so they come into the initiative as Newcomers Are Aware.

They go first at the beginning of the round in which they arrive. They do not even roll initiative (Newcomers Are Aware rule).

Unfortunately for them, the Spectre and Golem had readied actions.


Even using the one side aware the other side not aware, so the aware side prepares for a few rounds rule, the "unaware side" still cannot do actions right away.

 

[Thanee]

Everyone gets to act in the round right after the surprise round (unaware opponents only do not get actions during the surprise round), so this scenario can never happen.

Bye
Thanee

 

[TheEvil]

Except that this is not the rule.

The rule is:

"An encounter can begin in one of three situations:
One side becomes aware of the other and thus can act first."

The spectre is aware. He can act. He does not HAVE to be able to attack, just act. Thus, he can act AND he can initiate combat. Since he is the only one aware, he gets a surprise round. On his surprise round, he orders the Golems to prepare. They are now also aware and get actions to ready in round one.

A few rounds later, the party arrives. They too are aware (assuming they remembered the encounter), so they come into the initiative as Newcomers Are Aware.

They go first at the beginning of the round in which they arrive. They do not even roll initiative (Newcomers Are Aware rule).

Unfortunately for them, the Spectre and Golem had readied actions.


Even using the one side aware the other side not aware, so the aware side prepares for a few rounds rule, the "unaware side" still cannot do actions right away.

Actually, if the PCs went throught the door the round after the Spectre became aware of them, then they and the golems would roll initiative as normal, since being notified during the suprise round doesn't allow them to act. If it does, then I have been seriously screwed over by GMs.

 

[KarinsDad]

Everyone gets to act in the round right after the surprise round (unaware opponents only do not get actions during the surprise round), so this scenario can never happen.

Not opponents who are Newcomers. They come in much later and do not get to take combat actions until they get there.

 

[Nail]

Doesn't the "newcomers rule" assume a battle is already taking place? Are the golems fighting the spectre?

Without a battle, can there be "newcomers"?

 

[William_2]

Well, perhaps it is worth suggesting that being aware of someone is NOT the same as being in combat with them. I think the relevant rule is that “When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. “ Or maybe “If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.”

At any rate, the point is that a surprise round is something that occasionally occurs just before the first round of conventional combat. It is preceded by the aware combatants rolling initiative, and followed immediately by the remaining combatants doing so. In situations where combat is not initiated, it is not relevant.
A long way of saying what Thanee just did in a quarter of the space, but we don’t all have that gift.

Combat may begin with surprise. It NEVER begins with a surprise round that one side is not even involved in, followed by several rounds of them, still uninvolved, wandering down a hall and opening a door (what if they take lunch then? Still surprised hours later when they open the door?). Call it an encounter by all means, but it is not combat. While the Spectre and Golems may have done many things, they could not ready actions outside of combat. They wait, and when the heroes arrive, they initiate combat. If they are quick, they strike first, and if not, not. Initiative is a nice effective system for portraying this both with drama and some realism.
The villain who waits behind the door with a club sometimes hits the hero- and sometimes the hero springs by and strikes the villain instead. Exactly the situation everyone should want- what would be the motive for wanting every attempted ambush to succeed without fail?
The Spectre being aware that people are approaching is a staple. If it attacks, it will get a surprise round, followed by a regular combat round. If it chooses to stay in another room and do nothing, it gets the appropriate award as well. It can chat up the Golems all it wants, it won’t make them any faster...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I believe the most playable definition of "awareness" for purposes of Surprise is "aware and (theorectically) capable of attacking".

Awareness is only relevant when resolving the start of Initiative. If no one can actually fight then you would normally not begin Initiative yet and therefore there is no Surprise possible within the RAW.

The idea behind surprise is that a only a subset of potential combatants are involved the fighting at first because the others completely lack plausible targets. In the simplest example, if I am an Invisble Rogue and I successfully sneak up on you, I should get my first attack for "free". The Surprise round is a logical extension of this "free" attack to multiple combatants.

If the spectre's opponents are on the other side of the door, he is not in Initiative yet. He lacks a plausible target. When the door opens the spectre has no automatic advantage with respect to awareness anymore. Roll Initiative.

It is important to look at the overall tactical situation. Resolving surprise primarily on some vague definition of "awareness" leads to gibberish. If the Spectre detects half the party, does the other half get to surprise the spectre? If the party had cast Detect Evil and detected the Spectre, can the golems surprise the party? Is Detect Evil sufficient to be aware? What if they expected an evil spectre and open the door to be greeted by an evil dragon? What if the Arcane Trickster casts Ghost Sound and fools the Fighter into believing there is an enemy behind the door? Is the Fighter not surprised when it turns out to be true?

We can meditate over D&D rule koans like "Perfect knowledge without awareness", "Combat without fighting", "Acting without action" and pretend we understand them, only to trip over the Surprise rules when everyone understands differently in the next game session. Or we can use a simpler and more narrow definition of awareness that is actually workable. Choose wisely.

 

[KarinsDad]

Doesn't the "newcomers rule" assume a battle is already taking place? Are the golems fighting the spectre?

Without a battle, can there be "newcomers"?

The real question is:

Can there be a battle if one side is unaware of it?

If the answer to this is yes, then newcomers can come in, even though there is no battle per se.

If the answer to this is no, then we are stuck with the "one side aware of the other" rule where actions can be done for several rounds and then the aware side (i.e. the spectre) still get a standard action before the unaware side get their initiatives.


The original poster's question boils down to whether the PCs are aware or not. I think they are more aware of potential danger and the form it might take, but they are not actually aware of their opponents until they open the door. Otherwise, this opens a can of worms with regard to every door in the future.

Plus, this interpretation does not prevent the PCs from preparing for an encounter that they suspect might happen. It merely means the the Spectre (and the Golems) get a surprise round ready action because they are explicitly aware of the PCs. If the PCs want to avoid that, there are ways. For example, only the first PC should open the door, everyone else stands back, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

I believe the most playable definition of "awareness" for purposes of Surprise is "aware and (theorectically) capable of attacking".

Awareness is only relevant when resolving the start of Initiative. If no one can actually fight then you would normally not begin Initiative yet and therefore there is no Surprise possible within the RAW.

This is incorrect. Awareness is also relevant before combat starts.

RAW itself states that you can be aware rounds in advance in order to prepare.

Even if you rule that combat itself does not start until you can potentially attack (which is reasonable), RAW still states that the aware side can prepare ahead of time and also, the side that is aware gets a free standard action before initiative is ever rolled.