Surprise or no surprise?

[werk]

With the input from fellow players (which is why we are here, right? ),

Isn't it funny that you are going through all of this, I think, because the players will be mad if you drop suprise on them, otherwise you would clearly choose surprise. Put a wandering dire rat in there and just call surprise.
"but we knew they were in there from 5 weeks ago, we can't be surprised!"
"did you know about the rat? no. and the golems have changed positions with each other, so they are not where you think they are...a lot can happen in 5 weeks guys."

I'd call surprise, blow, blow, drain, (squeek), roll init.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Isn't it funny that you are going through all of this, I think, because the players will be mad if you drop suprise on them, otherwise you would clearly choose surprise. Put a wandering dire rat in there and just call surprise.
"but we knew they were in there from 5 weeks ago, we can't be surprised!"
"did you know about the rat? no. and the golems have changed positions with each other, so they are not where you think they are...a lot can happen in 5 weeks guys."

I'd call surprise, blow, blow, drain, (squeek), roll init.

Some of the worst advice I have heard in a long time.

 

[Celebrim]

This is one of those things that just never comes up for me. If it was any party I was in, knowing the specific monsters on the other side of the doors, the party would have already had a detailed 5 round branching path plan of attack, and would have busted into the room like a SEAL team on amphetimines. "Ok, everyone is protected by the cleric's Invisibility to Undead we cast earlier. Before we open the door, the cleric will cast Delay Poison on everyone, and then as soon as the door is opened, the wizard casts his energy substituted Wall of Fire (electricity) that's he's preparing into the room, then the cleric goes in and if he sees the specter he uses his Greater Turning domain ability heightened with the Heighten Turning feat, the the fighters will charge into the room on the left and attack whatever they find. The rogue will stay behind to protect the wizard. Next round we'll..."

It sounds like the golems had readied actions to breath as soon as the door was opened or something. So, roll initiative, let the party go on their count and get breathed on as soon as the door is opened. Problem solved.

Agreed.

If the PC's didn't have a plan, then they lose initiative to the Golems with a plan - but its not technically a 'surprise round'. I would NOT rule that the PC's had opened the door on a known threat and were somehow still flatfooted. But I would definiately rule that if they didn't have a readied action, 'As soon as the door is opened, I do X', then they lose initiative to anyone that does.

 

[moritheil]

This is one of those things that just never comes up for me. If it was any party I was in, knowing the specific monsters on the other side of the doors, the party would have already had a detailed 5 round branching path plan of attack, and would have busted into the room like a SEAL team on amphetimines.

And this is precisely why I find it fishy that the players in that game suddenly realize that their characters have been there before, but only after the golems breathe on them and hell breaks lose. They didn't act like this. I would interpret this as, "Somehow, your characters must not have remembered; maybe they thought those monsters were two rooms over from here instead of here."

Then again, I'm one of those wacky DMs who tries to justify things and make them as seamless as possible to avoid wild spurts of reality revision. Silly me.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And this is precisely why I find it fishy that the players in that game suddenly realize that their characters have been there before, but only after the golems breathe on them and hell breaks lose. They didn't act like this. I would interpret this as, "Somehow, your characters must not have remembered; maybe they thought those monsters were two rooms over from here instead of here."

It is possible they forgot. OTOH the players may have been expecting one thing, and did not bother to comment because it seemed obvious to them how things were going to unfold. Should the players warn the DM off of every conceivable stupid (from their POV) ruling before the fact?

The DM should not make random assumptions about the state of mind of the PC just because if he were the player he would act a certain way. That is not the DM's job.

Why not justify a ruling based on the rules instead of using a Oujia board?

 

[moritheil]

It is possible they forgot. OTOH the players may have been expecting one thing, and did not bother to comment because it seemed obvious to them how things were going to unfold. Should the players warn the DM off of every conceivable stupid (from their POV) ruling before the fact?

The DM should not make random assumptions about the state of mind of the PC just because if he were the player he would act a certain way. That is not the DM's job.

Why not justify a ruling based on the rules instead of using a Oujia board?

Okay, that's unnecessarily snide.

If you read the rest of my post, I explained my system: players are considered to be in character at all times unless explicitly out of character. And also, did you read this?

If, on the other hand, they clearly stated "we ready for those monsters we fought last time, and then we open the door" or something like that, then no, I would not rule they were surprised.

So, having not gotten a response, my subsequent post postulated that perhaps the players had said nothing whatsoever about the monsters in the next room, cast no buffs, made no preparations, and just gone and opened the door.

Tell me, do you honestly think that it's ridiculous to suggest that, in that scenario, they did not seem to be remembering the monsters on the other side of the door?

Or maybe - just maybe - did you fail to read all of my posts and therefore read my last one out of context?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In general, I do not think there should be Surprise unless one group can potentially attack and the other group cannot before start of combat. Usually this would be because one side is Invisible or otherwise hidden.

Surprise should be awarded for a very clearcut tactical advantage. If you are trying to rationalize Surprise with guesses about the state of mind of the characters, then the tactical advantage is apparently not obvious enough.

The spectre cannot attack the party until the door is opened. If he cannot attack, then we are outside of Initiative. If we are outside of Initiative there no possibility of Readying.

If one sides seems definitely more prepared for combat than the other, the appropriate thing to do is give a circumstance bonus to Initiative.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I apologize if I seemed snide.

Let me try again...

It is the player's job to play the PC. It is not the job of the DM to play the PC. If the DM is unsure about some fact regarding the PC, would it not be best to ask the player about the PC in question? Why ever guess?

I can understand that some groups prefer to stay in character, and therefore asking such questions is to be avoided. But that is not a rules justification. That is a "we play a certain style and are willing as a group to pay the price even if it means mistakes will occur" justification.

 

[moritheil]

I apologize if I seemed snide.

Let me try again...

It is the player's job to play the PC. It is not the job of the DM to play the PC. If the DM is unsure about some fact regarding the PC, would it not be best to ask the player about the PC in question? Why ever guess?

I can understand that some groups prefer to stay in character, and therefore asking such questions is to be avoided. But that is not a rules justification. That is a "we play a certain style and are willing as a group to pay the price even if it means mistakes will occur" justification.

No harm done.

I use the term "guess" here because, as is obvious, I was not there for the actual event in question mentioned in the first post of this thread. Any conclusion I make about it, though it may or may not be well-informed, is therefore a guess. If I were DMming the thing, I wouldn't even be trying to screw the PCs over by calling surprise. My encounters are typically brutal enough without requiring the villans to get surprise. Furthermore, it's no fun when a PC group thinks the DM is out to rob them.

I alluded to such considerations in my first take on the issue:

I, too, think that rolling initiative would be fair, but that it would depend on the situation.

This was my rules response. Further responses got into the proverbial "he said she said" possibilities.

PS: Ironically enough, I wish my players would abide by your statement more often. It often happens that someone leaves notes for me to play their character for them. :\

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

This was my rules response. Further responses got into the proverbial "he said she said" possibilities.

PS: Ironically enough, I wish my players would abide by your statement more often. It often happens that someone leaves notes for me to play their character for them. :\

Or to be more precise, that was your first & favored rules response. I guess I was reading too much into the speculations. Sorry about that.

I would say that DMs guessing what PCs are thinking is not exactly rare. I have seen a couple good DMs make the game go very badly when they made that mistake. The lesson I took away is that it is the player and only the player who is responsible for what the PC is thinking.

(We usually let other players play those PCs because it is too much of a pain for the DM.)