D&D 5E Surprise!

[Athinar]

So, the invisible Half-Orc assassin is hiding say 80 feet in the dark and attacks with bow and arrow, attacking a human with no means of seeing the Half-Orc nor the arrow until it hits the Human and maybe not even then with Total darkness

Human is surprised when the arrows hits

Roll initiative, Human Rolls a natural 20 +2 for Dex, Half-Orc rolls natural 1 + 3 for dex

so with the initiative the human gets no "Action/Bonus/Move", the human's turn is now over (but may have a reaction, like the Shield Spell). the Half-Orc assassin now does not get the Assassination because if his lost initiative but the arrow hits the surprised human and does normal damage, something is wrong about this when the human still does not see the half-orc assassin

from another post, it was said that "Surprise is either before the initiative or the one doing the Surprising has won the initiative or may get Advantage on the Initiative Roll" (may change with the errata)

Page 189, Right side, bottom of the page,

"anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking bonus actions."

And here we need a 4th acronym: RACS, for Rules As Common Sense; and RACS here would suggest the wall blocks some of the sound and all of the vision, and destroying the wall lets all the sound through and gives obscured vision.
See, here again: use RACS. Regardless of what the RAW says, an assassin surprising an opponent should either get a free shot before initiative is rolled at all or automatically win init. in the first round - or get advantage on the init. roll and the victim gets disadvantage?
RACS in general is completely up to the DM, but there's places where the designers could throw 'em in too.
Lanefan

 

[Paraxis]

The Half-Orc assassin now does not get the Assassination because if his lost initiative but the arrow hits the surprised human and does normal damage, something is wrong about this when the human still does not see the half-orc assassin

It is one class ability, if you want change it.

I see it as the human having 6th sense or seeing the glint of the arrow, or some form of battle awareness.

Don't forget that if the human is a monk he could use his reaction to deflect the arrow, now since the assassin still has advantage from stealth I imagine he wont reduce the damage to 0 but I guess he could if the human rolled very high and the assassin rolled very low.

How do you feel about the human if he had the alertness feat? He would go on 27 (from the +5), not be surprised so have his action and move, and if the assassin still had stealth when it got to his turn wouldn't even have advantage on the attack so no sneak attack at all.

Or a 7th level barbarian using feral instincts doing something similar?

If a feat or class feature can do all that, why not just let everyone get some benefit from having a high initiative roll.

 

[dd.stevenson]

The too long; didn't read version is: do Doppelgangers get Surprise when they attack?

I would try to role play it out so that they were at the character's back. In that case, they would get auto surprise. If that didn't pan out, I would force the doppleganger to make a stealth roll vs. target's passive per to get the drop.

 

[Unwise]

All of the scenarios in the OP sound like surprise to me. Its a pretty simple test for me, would I be surprised if that happened? The second test is, would I be caught flatfooted by that surprise.

The second test does not come into it overly often, but has happened in the past. Say if you decide you are going to kick in a door and shoot everything inside. You kick open the door and see a lama riding a dolphin in a pool of jello. Sure you are surprised, but you are not flatfooted, if you want to shoot the dolphin riding lama, you can.

 

[Lanefan]

So, the invisible Half-Orc assassin is hiding say 80 feet in the dark and attacks with bow and arrow, attacking a human with no means of seeing the Half-Orc nor the arrow until it hits the Human and maybe not even then with Total darkness

Human is surprised when the arrows hits

OK so far, as this is (or should be, by RACS) all happening before initiative is even rolled! And if that arrow is deadly-poisoned or does enough damage by itself to drop the Human then this combat ends before it starts. But let's say our Human has some starch and withstands the first shot...

Roll initiative, Human Rolls a natural 20 +2 for Dex, Half-Orc rolls natural 1 + 3 for dex

so with the initiative the human gets no "Action/Bonus/Move", the human's turn is now over (but may have a reaction, like the Shield Spell). the Half-Orc assassin now does not get the Assassination because if his lost initiative but the arrow hits the surprised human and does normal damage, something is wrong about this when the human still does not see the half-orc assassin

Problem is, the Assassin has blown his cover (and his invisibility) by shooting the arrow, and even though the Human can't see him in the darkness I'd say he gets a full suite of actions on his initiative...which would probably include getting a light going and throwing it in the vague direction the arrow came from, taking cover, and yelling for help. Then the Assassin has to decide whether to press the attack or call it a botched job and bail out.

Lan-"the Assassin's mistake is that he needed to get a lot closer than 80' and try for a one-shot (or one strike) kill"-efan

 

[GMMichael]

Lan-"the Assassin's mistake is that he needed to get a lot closer than 80' and try for a one-shot (or one strike) kill"-efan

Nice nickname. It's usually a red flag for me when a game system (not simulating lots of barbarians and lots of clubs) rewards charging in versus attacks at range.

If the assassin is a fragile one and wants to be able to easily escape, shoot from distance.

If he's a heavily armored brute who could easily kill a blind human, yes, he should be clubbing that human over the head instead.

 

[Athinar]

New Feat - Spider Sense, when bitten by a radioactive Spider, humanoids gain "6th sense or some form of battle awareness".

Surprise - Lost Action/Bonus Action/Move and only after your lost turn is over (After the Arrow has gone thru your neck) do you get any Reactions, Your Reaction; You think to yourself, "Crap, I'm dead"

alertness feat - You can no longer be Surprised, (Possible way to play this is "you heard the sound of something in the darkness") (No Surprise, No Assassination); should be to associated with "Perception" but it is not, like Observant, +5 to passive Wisdom and Dungeon Delver Advantage with "Perception", but fits the Spider Sense - "6th sense or some form of battle awareness", (but there is that "awareness" thingy again)

Wiki - Alertness is the state of active attention by high sensory awareness such as being watchful and prompt to meet danger or emergency, or being quick to perceive and act

So I think the Designers get this Alertness feat wrong and made it OP; should be:

Alertness - +5 to "Perception" and Advantage with "Perception"; if you win the Perception to Stealth contest you gain +5 to Initiative

fits better for the "Always on the lookout for danger"

Not "can no longer be surprised" - OP

A 7th level barbarian using feral instincts; Now this is where Initiative comes into play, if the Assassin wins the initiative then Assassination is successful; if the initiative is lost then the assassination is not successful (but the Assassin still needs to win the Stealth to Perception contest first)

If you can not detect the creature doing the surprising then you are surprised and can not take a turn during the your first turn no matter what your initiative is (remember there are feats that impact Surprise)

 

[Athinar]

OK so far, as this is (or should be, by RACS) all happening before initiative is even rolled! And if that arrow is deadly-poisoned or does enough damage by itself to drop the Human then this combat ends before it starts. But let's say our Human has some starch and withstands the first shot...

Problem is, the Assassin has blown his cover (and his invisibility) by shooting the arrow, and even though the Human can't see him in the darkness I'd say he gets a full suite of actions on his initiative...which would probably include getting a light going and throwing it in the vague direction the arrow came from, taking cover, and yelling for help. Then the Assassin has to decide whether to press the attack or call it a botched job and bail out.

Lan-"the Assassin's mistake is that he needed to get a lot closer than 80' and try for a one-shot (or one strike) kill"-efan

the Assassin does blow it's cover when it shoots the arrow but only after the Assassination attempt is resolved; 600 feet is a long distance to cover for any creature

With the Feat "Skulker" the cover is not blown even after the Arrow hits

The Archer "Long Bow" Assassin with the Feat "Sharpshooter" and "Surprise" can Assassinate from 600 feet out, with no Sharpshooter feat, you can Assassinate from 150 feet out, being in close when you attempt to assassinate does nothing but get you too close; if the creature survives the assassination attempt he doubles move to you or tries to start a torch (if he or she has one) or cast a light spell (if he or she has one) or runs in the opposite direction that the arrow comes from or screams I surrender and I will be your sex slave

Study up on the Rogue and Assassins with long Range attacks

The FBI has and so has Clint Eastwood

Sniper is a 2014 American biographical war drama film directed by Clint Eastwood and written by Jason Hall. It is based on the book American Sniper:

 

[Zinnger]

I think there is a difference between surprise and first attack. If you are totally unsuspecting of an attack even if you can see the attacker but think they are a friend, for example, then they will get the first attack. Then you roll initiative. If you win the initiative roll you you are not surprised and can attack or defend as normal. But if you loose the roll then the attacker will complete a second round of attacks prior to your action. Depending on the situation (can see the attacker but did not expect an attack / had no idea there was even anything there to attack you at all) you may or may not get a reaction on the initial attack. I would rule that the unexpected attack be carried out normally and then initiative be rolled. If it is a completely unsuspecting attack then you are surprised until your turn after the initial attack occurs. Just my opinion.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I just want to mention the Alert feat, which the Rogue can get, which means he can NEVER be surprised. That said, in some circumstances I still think it would be unavoidable, such as an armed doppleganger who you think is your friend suddenly stabs you in the back. Unless we're looking at "Alert" as more akin to "Spidey Sense"

Doppelgangers shouldn't do that anyway. The right time to stab the rogue is not "between combats so you can get a surprise round," it is "when the cleric has been stunned by mind flayers and the rogue is rushing to heal the downed fighter using Fast Hands + Healer feat, so the fighter can kill the intellect devourer before it eats the cleric's brain." THAT is when the wizard suddenly betrays the party and attacks the rogue, because he's a doppelganger. Or an intellect devourer wearing the wizard's body.