D&D 5E (2014) Survival and Exhaustion in ToA: need a good house rule.

[Guest 6801328]

Last weekend I started a ToA game and found the rules for survival/thirst/exhaustion while exploring the jungle deeply unsatisfying.

On the one hand RAW just seems too clerical (in the bookkeeping sense, not the Raise Dead sense). Who really wants to track whether every player finds 2 gallons of water a day?

On the other hand, we had a Ranger with Outlander background, and a Barbarian with Outlander background. Between the two of them the challenge seems to vanish completely. I was looking forward to the party getting lost while hexcrawling, but of course Rangers can't get lost in their favored terrain. Should Chult count as "forest" even though it's jungle/rainforest? (There is no "jungle" or "rainforest" listed as a terrain type for either Rangers or Druids...)

I finally just said, "Fine. You find plenty of food and water and never get lost...."

But that spoils some of the fun.

I like the direction CapnZapp is going with his house rule ("If you wear heavy armor you have a minimum exhaustion level of 1") but I don't like that no armor, light armor, and medium armor have zero penalties, and then suddenly heavy armor is an automatic 1.

I also think it goes too far in simplifying the survival mechanics. I want my players to sometimes have to think about some food/water/navigation, I just don't want it to be everybody literally keeping track of gallons of water every day.

So...anybody come up with any alternate systems?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Check the issues that the weather in Chult causes in addition to the usual conditions.

I would definitely consider jungle or rainforest to be a different terrain type to a temperate forest.

 

[CapnZapp]

Paging [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION]

Message: "I told you so"

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[zedturtle]

What if, due to the extreme conditions, they had a minimum exhaustion level of 1 unless they spend a Hit Die during a long rest? So any time they need to make sure they're not exhausted they will spend a resource, and I (as usual) would suggest being generous with inspiration so that they have a way to negate the effect when it's critical and they don't have time to rest.

 

[CAFRedblade]

We usually think of Forest as Temperate Deciduous Forest or Temperate Coniferous Forest vs. Tropical Rainforest (Jungle) I'd say if he picked forest, I'd have him narrow it down to the characters origin location.
Also, it's probably unfamiliar terrain and thus resources are more difficult to locate for the party. Maybe becoming closer to normal as the party spends time in the jungle environ. Also, keep in mind, if the party is finding water and food resources, these same locations could be the favourite hunting grounds of various critters. Although If the party has a druid, a simple good berry solves the problem of food/nutrition.
Also, keep in mind that heat levels can induce exhaustion, and Jungles are usually hot and humid, especially for those wearing armour.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Paging [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION]

Message: "I told you so"

/eyeroll

And people wonder why nobody on the forums ever wants to admit when somebody else has a good point.

 

[neogod22]

A cleric with create food and water solves the problem too.

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[Gardens & Goblins]

/eyeroll

And people wonder why nobody on the forums ever wants to admit when somebody else has a good point.

I'm am so more more mature than you. My inner child said so. So there. Nah nah nah nah nah

 

[Sacrosanct]

/eyeroll

And people wonder why nobody on the forums ever wants to admit when somebody else has a good point.

I'm not sure what he's "telling me so" on. That someone else found the rules unsatisfying? Um...Ok. I never argued that. What I disagreed with him on was his belief that you couldn't play with the rules as is, and the fact that almost all of his assumptions about why it's unplayable relied on a higher level party who just so happened to have all the right spells prepared and at hand. When I pointed out how the jungle was for Tier 1, he disagreed, which was odd because at that point I had the book and he didn't, so why someone would say I'm wrong when I'm reading it right out of the book is beyond me.

But hey, if this makes him feel better, more power to him. Shrug.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I also think it goes too far in simplifying the survival mechanics. I want my players to sometimes have to think about some food/water/navigation, I just don't want it to be everybody literally keeping track of gallons of water every day.

So...anybody come up with any alternate systems?

This has been an issue since darksun. Even darksun failed to make surviving in the desert a sub game that was fun OR difficult to beat.

Is surviving a lack of food and water going to be a fun game ever? By default you will simply "carry enough" for your intended trip, because it's stupid to do otherwise. The only time it will come up is if the DM forces you into scenarios where you don't/can't carry enough. There isn't a decision here, so there's no game.

On the topic of 'getting lost':
Not being lost is simply knowing where you are in relation to where you started your trek. To me, the key part of an exploration game isn't whether or not you can find your way to things that you know the precise location of. It's whether you know the precise location of things in the first place.

Combined:
I know of one game that comes close to making wilderness navigation and survival fun: forbidden desert.

But truth be told - all water management does in that game is provide incentive not to split up all across the map. It's still not the most interesting bit of the game. It's not the hardest part of playing the game. It's really just 'another thing we have to worry about'. It's there, but it's not going to be centre stage. I don't think I've lost a game to dehydration since the first or second play. The OTHER time limits on the game are what make things difficult.

And the navigation? You literally know the location of all the characters all the time. But it doesn't matter, because the problems with navigation come from:
a) not knowing where you are going without some detective work
b) having extremely fine-tuned limits on how quickly you must get to the locations that you discover

So we come to how you might make overland travel and survival fun:

1. Even if you never get 'lost', that is largely immaterial if you don't know the location of everything in the first place.
2. Navigation should be a matter of accepting risks and penalties for some benefit. That benefit is travel speed, because...
3. Time is your enemy. You should be racing other parties to destinations, working to beat the clock on a villain's doomsday timer, pursuing targets or... SOMETHING.

Out of that, you can pull some reasons for worrying about rations and water. If you've got sufficient rations and water, you can eat and drink on the move. If you are foraging, you have to move more slowly. Running out of rations and water means you can either move slowly or risk exhaustion.

It's still not ideal, because exhaustion is an awful mechanic. Tiny amounts of exhaustion kill your ability to succeed at anything that isn't combat (which is weird - "yes, I can swing my sword just fine, but for the life of me, I can't remember any ancient history, because I am so tired". Again - you've removed decisions from the 'game' of survival. Accepting exhaustion as a penalty might be acceptable for a single level of exhaustion for some specific characters, but getting a second level of exhaustion is unthinkable if time is our resource.

I think exhaustion is salvageable though. It's as simple as this: allow a PC to select the penalty for each level of exhaustion he takes from the list of penalties that exhaustion has. Each penalty can be taken only once. If speed is of the essence, characters might take a mix of skill disadvantage, attack and save disadvantage and hit point reduction for their early exhaustion penalties. Or perhaps there are some other resources or trade-offs that can be burnt to maintain speed or class abilities that make up the shortfall, so maybe some party members can take the speed penalty to keep their combat ability and skills up.

I think that makes exhaustion a far more useful resource, and makes survival a more entertaining game.