Survivor 11/26 SPOILERS!

[ASH]

I agree about Burton and Lil. I dont know why they are in the game. They were voted out. Plain and simple.

On another note all of us Rupert fans can rejoice. He is selected, and has agreed to do the Survivor 8 All stars. Their is 18 survivors in 3 different teams. Apparently Rupert was the last one chosen. This is the site where I found the names of all the cast members:

http://groups.msn.com/SURVIVORTheCBSTelevisionSeries/survivor9theallstaredition1.msnw

Oh, and they are definintly doing a Survivor 9. They started taking applications again just a week ago.

 

[Silver Moon]

On another note all of us Rupert fans can rejoice. He is selected, and has agreed to do the Survivor 8 All stars. [/url]

That's Great

 

[John Crichton]

If either Burton or Lil take the whole thing, more power to them. It would have been really easy for the rest of the survivors to just wait until their immunity was gone and then vote them out again. But they didn't. The 2 people who were voted off in their place were on their way out anyway. Heck, one of them voted himself off. I'd rather have Lil in there right now who wants to stay out there than Osten who was Survivor's biggest dissappointment ever.

Also, this sets up future Survivor season's for even more uncertainty for the players. It's the ultimate gameshow with ever-changing rules. I'm waiting for when they start a regular season (not the all-star season) with 3 tribes or shake things up even more. If they did the same thing or just similar every year it would get boring really quickly.

 

[DMScott]

Alot of that is based soley on the fact that none of the Outcasts can win against anyone else in the final vote. While not a bad way to look at it, I can't agree.

Fair comment. But...

The people on the jury (if the past is any indication) are respectful of those who played the game the best.

Getting voted out long before the tribes merge, like Burton and Lillian did, is an indication they didn't play very well, and exactly the reason why I don't believe either outcast can win against any non-outcast. If your hypothesis is correct, then all Jon or Sandra or Christa or Darrah has to do when up against one of those two is say to the jury "look, I made it this far without any second chances, just like six of you. The game is Survivor, seven of us played our butts off and survived fair and square, those two had an advantage none of the rest of us had. Not only did they get a second chance after getting voted off by their respective tribes, but they were immune from two of the tribal councils the rest of us had to survive. If you're voting on who played better, I think your choice is clear - vote for the one of us that didn't need for Mark Burnett to hold our hand and give us a second chance with special privileges. Thanks for your time." By the standards you outline, the non-outcast will most likely win by a landslide.

If you want to see one of the outcasts win, you have to hope that either they both make the final two, or the jury completely throws away all past assumptions and votes for the most heartwrenching story or some such fluff. Based strictly on "who played the game the best?", Burton and Lil are fried against anyone other than each other - and they know it.

The only female who we have seen doing anything proactive has been Sandra and her eavesdropping.

You're getting suckered by the editing. There's three days of filming that gets boiled down into 40-odd minutes of whatever Burnett wants to show that week, so clearly a huge amount goes on that we never see. Typically, the storylines focus on the people who are the most obvious in their scheming, not necessarily the best, and of course people getting voted off get a lot of airtime to wrap up their story. We can reasonably assume that anybody who's made it this far has played the game at least competently - otherwise, they'd be out.

 

[John Crichton]

Getting voted out long before the tribes merge, like Burton and Lillian did, is an indication they didn't play very well, and exactly the reason why I don't believe either outcast can win against any non-outcast. If your hypothesis is correct, then all Jon or Sandra or Christa or Darrah has to do when up against one of those two is say to the jury "look, I made it this far without any second chances, just like six of you. The game is Survivor, seven of us played our butts off and survived fair and square, those two had an advantage none of the rest of us had. Not only did they get a second chance after getting voted off by their respective tribes, but they were immune from two of the tribal councils the rest of us had to survive. If you're voting on who played better, I think your choice is clear - vote for the one of us that didn't need for Mark Burnett to hold our hand and give us a second chance with special privileges. Thanks for your time." By the standards you outline, the non-outcast will most likely win by a landslide.

Getting voted out at any time during the game is subject to so many different variables that it is nearly impossible to figure out a common reason for getting the boot. My comment was about the final vote, not the tribal counsel where folks are voted off. You are confusing the 2 and they are very different.

If you want to see one of the outcasts win, you have to hope that either they both make the final two, or the jury completely throws away all past assumptions and votes for the most heartwrenching story or some such fluff. Based strictly on "who played the game the best?", Burton and Lil are fried against anyone other than each other - and they know it.

Untrue to me and completely subjective in general. You have your opinion as do others. I shall leave it at that.

You're getting suckered by the editing. There's three days of filming that gets boiled down into 40-odd minutes of whatever Burnett wants to show that week, so clearly a huge amount goes on that we never see. Typically, the storylines focus on the people who are the most obvious in their scheming, not necessarily the best, and of course people getting voted off get a lot of airtime to wrap up their story. We can reasonably assume that anybody who's made it this far has played the game at least competently - otherwise, they'd be out.

I am being suckered by absolutely nothing. My statement was pretty clear about what we have seen. We cannot assume things that we have not seen as an audience. I am taking what they give me which is all I have to go on, just like everyone else

I said, "The only female who we have seen doing anything proactive has been Sandra and her eavesdropping," and that is exactly what I meant. We have no clue if she is the only one doing it. My point was that we have seen no actual playing of the game from the majority of the females. The producers make sure we see anything that directly effects the game or why even have them play to begin with. If the chicks were making a massive plan we will eventually know about it. As it stands now, the only reason the females are left is because they either posed no threat or were riding on the coat tails of a different player.

I hold firm to my point that right now none of the women have a chance in the final vote due to their innactivity in the game so far. The final vote, by precident, is rarely decided by personal bias. See Christy from last year and her vote for Jenna in the end. Also, recall the final players admitting that if Rob was in the final 2 he would have won hands down because of the way he played the game, not because he made any good friends. Also see Brian the year before. He was a slimeball and still won the whole thing. Note that none of what I just said applies to any votes but the final vote for the million.

I'd also just like to say that just about everything to do with Survivor is highly subjective and open to equal debate. It's odd that the final vote (for me) is typically my least favorite part of the show because it is fairly clear how the people vote by now. There is one constant in the show: Everyone lies, cheats and backstabs at one point and they all know it. Hence the respect for who did it the best when it comes down to it at the end.

 

[stevelabny]

a few more things;

ash: jeff hates jon. so what? jeff is friends with COLBY. colby is a loser who threw the game. throwing the game is a lot worse than anything jon has done. also, i saw a lot of people in the survivor chat room proclaim that jon's lie was immoral or something similar, but they couldnt explain themselves at all. can you PLEASE explain to me how this lie is any worse than any other lie? it is not hurting anyone in any way.

ghostwind's wife... i can easily see jon as a pothead. but a hardcore user? no... how would he survive on an island for 40 days? and a gang member? get real.
hes a goof. who watches wrestling. hes the annoying version of rob from last year. no gang would let him in.

quasqueton.... well, they didnt just LET them back in..there WAS a challenge. but i still sorta agree with you...i think andrew, being the one who got voted out when burton and lil were immune, was hosed the most by this rules change, and the fairest thing would be do to do it AGAIN when its down to 4 or 2, so EVERYONE gets a 2nd chance. i stand by my original opinion that the "ghost tribe" shouldve been able to play as spoilers only, and not be allowed back in, but it doesnt ruin it for me forever. Plus, if the internet is to be believed, mark burnett has sworn never to do this again. So i'll still be here next time.

ash again: if thats the REAL lineup of survior all-stars...who do i root for? ALL of my favorites are there. richard, rudy, big tom, boston robb,and magic 8 ball rob plus others i'd like to see again... ethan, lex, sue, rupert. and i can even root against all the pathetic losers from survivor2. too bad JOHNNY FAIRPLAY isnt in it as he and Richard Hatch and Boston Robb would be the ultimate team. But again, I'll watch it and like it, but for the mainstream audience, this is really threatening over-doing it and hearing cries of "jumping the shark"

DMScott... do you really think the editing ever leaves out anything TRULY important? i guarantee you that Darrah has really done NOTHING the entire time shes been on the isalnd. But again, I really wish someone at CBS would wake up and smell the DVD sales. A box set with 2 or 3 hours versions of each 1 hour episode including extra player commentaries. Plus the reunion show and a special interview with lots of opinion from each player? LIKE HOTCAKES!

and finally... Jon Crichton... are you serious about the jury voting for the best player???
Then please explain Tina, Vecepia, and Jenna? None of them were the best player.
Vecepia did NOTHING except annoy me with her constant praying, but at least you could argue that helen-backwards was the weakest final opponent that any of the winners had.
(Except maybe Ethan vs Kim... who should have kept Lex)
Tina won because she rode Colbys coattails, then he brought her to the finals instead of Keith, and then all but told the jury to vote for her instead of him.
Jenna was another waste of space. Christy only changed her vote, not because Jenna played best, but because she never liked "creepy" Matt, and wanted to vote for girl-power. And Rob voted for her cleavage and was jealous that he carried Matt all the way, and Matt outlasted him.
You can even argue that Brian over Clay was more a popularity thing than a best player thing. Clay had schemed just as well as Brian did to get to the end. (if not more, since hes "weaker")
Richard remains the ONLY winner who was disliked more than his opponent and won because he played better.

And of course looking back over the 6 seasons so far, once again the obvious problem with the show is that the final challenge of standing still in an uncomfortable position always favors young women.
Kelly beat Richard and Rudy (age or gender?)
Colby beat Tina and Keith (age)
Kim beat Ethan and Lex (gender!)
Helen-backwards beat Kathy and Vecepia (all women so it dont count, and a deal was struck before Vecepia gave up...ANOTHER reason Vecepia shouldnt have won)
Brian beat Clay and ancient Jan (age)
Jenna beat Matt and Rob (gender!)

Three of the five had women beating men, two of those where at least one of the guys was "in shape". The two of the five that men won , they were clearly much younger and in much better shape than the woman they beat.

Also, the fact that 5 of 6 Survivors have gone down to 2 men and 1 woman implies that just maybe the Burton-Johnny Fairplay alliance will hold. And Christa or Darrah would definately beat both of them in the final immunity, and Lil would definately lose it. (What about Sandra?) But now I've turned Survivor into baseball statistics, time for bed.

 

[John Crichton]

Beginning point: This whole conversation makes me giggle. I really wish I could stop watching this show but I just can't! LOL

and finally... Jon Crichton... are you serious about the jury voting for the best player???

Then please explain Tina, Vecepia, and Jenna? None of them were the best player.

They were all better than the person sitting next to them in the final 2. Okay, except maybe Tina.

Vecepia did NOTHING except annoy me with her constant praying, but at least you could argue that helen-backwards was the weakest final opponent that any of the winners had.

(Except maybe Ethan vs Kim... who should have kept Lex)
Tina won because she rode Colbys coattails, then he brought her to the finals instead of Keith, and then all but told the jury to vote for her instead of him.
Jenna was another waste of space. Christy only changed her vote, not because Jenna played best, but because she never liked "creepy" Matt, and wanted to vote for girl-power. And Rob voted for her cleavage and was jealous that he carried Matt all the way, and Matt outlasted him.
You can even argue that Brian over Clay was more a popularity thing than a best player thing. Clay had schemed just as well as Brian did to get to the end. (if not more, since hes "weaker")
Richard remains the ONLY winner who was disliked more than his opponent and won because he played better.

That is one way to look at it.

And of course looking back over the 6 seasons so far, once again the obvious problem with the show is that the final challenge of standing still in an uncomfortable position always favors young women.

Kelly beat Richard and Rudy (age or gender?)
Colby beat Tina and Keith (age)
Kim beat Ethan and Lex (gender!)
Helen-backwards beat Kathy and Vecepia (all women so it dont count, and a deal was struck before Vecepia gave up...ANOTHER reason Vecepia shouldnt have won)
Brian beat Clay and ancient Jan (age)
Jenna beat Matt and Rob (gender!)

Three of the five had women beating men, two of those where at least one of the guys was "in shape". The two of the five that men won , they were clearly much younger and in much better shape than the woman they beat.

Also, the fact that 5 of 6 Survivors have gone down to 2 men and 1 woman implies that just maybe the Burton-Johnny Fairplay alliance will hold. And Christa or Darrah would definately beat both of them in the final immunity, and Lil would definately lose it. (What about Sandra?) But now I've turned Survivor into baseball statistics, time for bed.

I'm not saying it was true for every season, what I was saying is that there is precident and a reoccuring trend. Let's look at the final 2s from a gamesmanship point of view -

Tina vs Colby - The only reason Colby made it that far was because he swept the immunities.
Ethan vs Kim - Kim was useless the entire game. She would have lost to either of the men in what (to me) was a pretty boring season.
Vecepia vs Neleh - This was a case of useless vs useless. Take your pick.
Brian vs Clay - Brian was the better player by a hair.
Jenna vs Matt - Matt was lucky to get as far as he did. He didn't play the game at all. Jenna most likely won because of her family situation. There was no gamesmanship to vote for either way here.

Any way you slice it, I guarantee that gamesmanship will rule the final votes from here on out. It may not have been how it started (I missed the first season), but that is what it has evolved into. The Survivors know to get rid of the people who have played the game the best, first. The "strongest" hasn't won yet. If you look at the post-game interviews after the game was completed there are multiple evidences of those who played the best being feared the most. Basically, the game comes down to the best schemer having to win immunity or that person won't even make the final vote. From all the seasons so far, maybe one of the best schemers has even made it to the final 2 (Brian). The rest were elimiated before they even got the chance to see all their game-playing pay off.

 

[ASH]

I'd also just like to say that just about everything to do with Survivor is highly subjective and open to equal debate. It's odd that the final vote (for me) is typically my least favorite part of the show because it is fairly clear how the people vote by now.

I totally agree with you on this point. I also agree with you on the women on the show. They have not really done anything that would cause me to vote for them. They just simply exist right now. This of course will probably change. We will see more of the girl's personalities come out with the pressure finally being put on. I hate how the girls are continueing to be blind. They should have banded together two shows ago, and probably would have if not for stupid lil.

There is one constant in the show: Everyone lies, cheats and backstabs at one point and they all know it. Hence the respect for who did it the best when it comes down to it at the end

To a point. I mean there is a level where the game could be played with out the manipulation factor. I am not saying it would be anywhere near as popular. I would not play it with out that, but it could be done. I also have to slightly ammend my over heated hatred of jon. I dont like him and I dont think that what he did was nessasary. He was not threatened to go home. He was sitting in a good position. I just feel like he crossed a line. Now if I was there, I would be tempted to do some pretty evil things, and probably would. But I am not, and I hate him. But I would rather him win that Lil. She is just so......clueless.

 

[ASH]

i saw a lot of people in the survivor chat room proclaim that jon's lie was immoral or something similar, but they couldnt explain themselves at all. can you PLEASE explain to me how this lie is any worse than any other lie? it is not hurting anyone in any way.

I have to say that its a personal feeling. If you really need an explination, I will try. When people manipulate, lie, and scheme on survivor it is always about stuff that goes on during the show. It has always had to do with the show. Not about real life. I mean, greif is a powerful thing when its real and its respected. He just pissed on something sacred. He might as well have whipped it out and actually pissed on the other people.
I am finding it hard to put in to words why I, and alot of people feel what he did was immoral. I mean, think about it, its not rocket science. Do you really need an explination. He lied about his grandma being dead to get sympathy. This does not scream immoral to you....No...Okay. Like I said its just a personal feeling.

if thats the REAL lineup of survior all-stars...who do i root for? ALL of my favorites are there. richard, rudy, big tom, boston robb,and magic 8 ball rob plus others i'd like to see again... ethan, lex, sue, rupert. and i can even root against all the pathetic losers from survivor2. too bad JOHNNY FAIRPLAY isnt in it as he and Richard Hatch and Boston Robb would be the ultimate team. But again, I'll watch it and like it, but for the mainstream audience, this is really threatening over-doing it and hearing cries of "jumping the shark"

The link is a pretty reliable source of info. It has been sited in a couple of newspapers too. CBS.com has not announced the players so I can and will not garantee it as being accurate until they do. I am assuming you will go ahead and root for the sneakiest, backstabbing, person.

I also think that you underestimated Tina. She was behind Colby the whole time pulling the strings. She took advantage that he would be looking at the younger women trying to manipulate them with his looks and he was weary of the cute girls for the same reason. He was not even thinking about tina. She used that mom persona on him and he was just like putty in her hands. She easily used him to do her work. Not to mention that they had an alliance since they first met up, and no one truly knew about that until the last few episodes. Yes he was very stupid. He would have won had he not taken Tina. Its still my favorite season so far.

 

[DMScott]

DMScott... do you really think the editing ever leaves out anything TRULY important?

That depends on how you define "truly important". If you mean in the context of how they play the game and what factors bear on some of them surviving that far, then yes, I'm 100% certain a lot of that is left out. I know this because in interviews Mark Burnett has said he edits the show to tell an interesting story each week, and by his own admission there isn't nearly enough time to show everything that bears on the game. He's also said that players who get in a lot of arguments or thrust themselves into prominent roles often get airtime out of proportion with their actual effect on the game, just because that's good TV. And the portrayal often isn't accurate - interviews with survivors from this season have said Jon was a funny guy, kind of the camp clown, and generally well-liked - compare and contrast that with his portrayal on the show as a lying backstabber who's usually at odds with half the camp during any given episode.

Heck, we don't even get to see the brief explanation of each person's vote when they cast it, just a couple of comments to show who the contenders are. What they do show is everything that Mark Burnett considers "truly important" for telling the story they want to focus on that week. Nothing less, and rarely anything more.