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Survivor Throwback Polearms- GLAIVE IS THE POINTIEST STICK!

Harzel

Adventurer
@Sadras: That's not really how I choose my vote. I'm upvoting my favorite option and downvoting the lowest-scoring one (always), so as to hasten the end of the contest.

Generally each vote decreases the total points remaining for all contestants by 1. From this, it is easy to see that, to a close approximation, the number of votes needed to end the contest is completely determined by the number of contestants at the start. The only variance is due to a) the number of points that the winner has at the end, and b) that downvoting a contestant from 1 to -1 leaves the total points unchanged. So in fact, contrary to your claim, there is a fairly common case in which downvoting the contestant with the fewest points actually retards progress toward ending the contest.

The only move that you can make that actually hastens the end of the contest is to upvote the eventual winner. Unfortunately, that's essentially an existence proof - it doesn't tell you how to actually accomplish that.
 

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Harzel

Adventurer
Bardiche 19
Bec de Corbin 19 - 2 = 17
Fauchard 20
Glaive 20
Halberd 16 +1 = 17
Lochaber Axe 21
Lucern Hammer 11
Ranseur 16
Voulge 18
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
Generally each vote decreases the total points remaining for all contestants by 1. From this, it is easy to see that, to a close approximation, the number of votes needed to end the contest is completely determined by the number of contestants at the start.
Not completely, but yes...the number of voters is a big contributor but how those votes are applied are also very important. One person has a +1/-2 (net -1) per day, but 2 people can have +2/-4 or +1/-3 per day, if their votes overlap. It's still a net -1 per voter, but the difference is whether two separate options get reduced by 2, or one single option gets reduced by 4. Three voters? Three options reduced by 2 each, a single option reduced by 6, or some combination thereof (and the possibility of overlapping). And the contest ends when a certain number of options are eliminated, not when a certain number of downvotes are made.

I'm bad at explaining this stuff. :-/ But you can model this stuff in Excel pretty easily; I've found that the contest ends quickest when everyone "focus fires" their upvotes on a single option while downvoting the lowest-scoring option. Which will never happen in practice, but the theory is sound.

AAANNNYYYway, back to the contest. Long live the Crow!
 


Harzel

Adventurer
Not completely, but yes...the number of voters is a big contributor but how those votes are applied are also very important.

The application of votes matters only in the ways that I mentioned previously. In particular, the number of votes in any sequence that ends the contest is precisely
(Initial # of contestants * 20) - (# of points the winner has at the end)
+ (# of times a downvote is applied to a contestant with 1 point remaining)


No other factors matter.

If we generalize the formula to
(Initial total # of points for all contestants) - (# of points the winner has at the end)
+ (# of times a downvote is applied to a contestant with 1 point remaining)

then it is (fairly) easy to prove this by induction on the length of the voting sequence (number of votes).

One person has a +1/-2 (net -1) per day, but 2 people can have +2/-4 or +1/-3 per day, if their votes overlap. It's still a net -1 per voter,

Yes, that's what matters.

but the difference is whether two separate options get reduced by 2, or one single option gets reduced by 4. Three voters? Three options reduced by 2 each, a single option reduced by 6, or some combination thereof (and the possibility of overlapping).

Which makes no difference in the end.

And the contest ends when a certain number of options are eliminated, not when a certain number of downvotes are made.

Yes, but those two quantities are related through the number of points.

I'm bad at explaining this stuff. :-/ But you can model this stuff in Excel pretty easily;

I'm not sure what you mean by 'model' - you could be talking about either some sort of sampling or some procedural way to generate all possible voting sequences from some initial state. The former could be misleading; the latter, if done correctly, should produce results in line with the formula I gave above.

I've found that the contest ends quickest when everyone "focus fires" their upvotes on a single option

Yes, each vote that upvotes the eventual winner reduces the number of votes needed by 1.

while downvoting the lowest-scoring option.

Nope, doesn't matter. Eliminating all the others takes a fixed number of downvotes regardless of order. Suppose, for example, we start with 5 contestants A, B, C, D, and E, and each has 20 points to start, and everyone always upvotes A. It will take exactly 4 * 10 = 40 votes to eliminate B, C, D, and E regardless of the order in which downvotes are applied to B, C, D, and E. This seems kind of obvious.

Which will never happen in practice, but the theory is sound.

AAANNNYYYway, back to the contest. Long live the Crow!

The crow suffered a slow and painful death after you cut off his bill to make that silly weapon.

DISCLAIMER: Yeah, I said all that like I am infallible. I have overlooked things on occasion, but at least for now, I'm convinced I have this right.
 

bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
Bardiche 20 because it's an axe so big it needs its own name
Bec de Corbin 15
Fauchard 20
Glaive 20
Halberd 17
Lochaber Axe 21
Lucern Hammer 12
Ranseur 14 still couldn't tell you what one of these is
Voulge 18
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
@Harzel - I'm not infallible either, and this topic comes up pretty often. (Here is a link to the last time, in the infamous Appendix E Authors thread, which might better explain what I'm trying to say? I dunno. I'm on cold medicine at the moment and my brain is fuzzy.) It earned me some chastisement later in that same thread from @Lanefan (and rightly so because they are absolutely right: it kills the fun.)

Your "no other factors matter" statement is wrong, though, because it doesn't consider two voters upvoting each other's downvote, which will increase the number of downvotes both options need to be removed from the list...which happens all the time, especially with the "Leader Penalty" thing (which is how I got onto this tangent in the first place.)

I already regret bringing it up again. I have a lot of fun with mathematics, but I realize that most folks don't. And I don't want to promote a "focus fire" strategy here, I promise. Long live the Crow! Or the Glaive, I always liked the naginata.
 


The application of votes matters only in the ways that I mentioned previously. In particular, the number of votes in any sequence that ends the contest is precisely
(Initial # of contestants * 20) - (# of points the winner has at the end)
+ (# of times a downvote is applied to a contestant with 1 point remaining)


No other factors matter.

If we generalize the formula to
(Initial total # of points for all contestants) - (# of points the winner has at the end)
+ (# of times a downvote is applied to a contestant with 1 point remaining)

then it is (fairly) easy to prove this by induction on the length of the voting sequence (number of votes).



Yes, that's what matters.



Which makes no difference in the end.



Yes, but those two quantities are related through the number of points.



I'm not sure what you mean by 'model' - you could be talking about either some sort of sampling or some procedural way to generate all possible voting sequences from some initial state. The former could be misleading; the latter, if done correctly, should produce results in line with the formula I gave above.



Yes, each vote that upvotes the eventual winner reduces the number of votes needed by 1.



Nope, doesn't matter. Eliminating all the others takes a fixed number of downvotes regardless of order. Suppose, for example, we start with 5 contestants A, B, C, D, and E, and each has 20 points to start, and everyone always upvotes A. It will take exactly 4 * 10 = 40 votes to eliminate B, C, D, and E regardless of the order in which downvotes are applied to B, C, D, and E. This seems kind of obvious.



The crow suffered a slow and painful death after you cut off his bill to make that silly weapon.

DISCLAIMER: Yeah, I said all that like I am infallible. I have overlooked things on occasion, but at least for now, I'm convinced I have this right.
Hes right guys.
I'll vouch. For i too have sipped the heavy necter of infallbility!
Hey pelor! You shut up. Vecna was your fault. Mostly because you exist and suck. Friggin solar powered hippy.
I feel like i went off on a tangent.
 
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No but in actuality the amount of votes necessary can in fact differ. Im actually infallible.

Just wanted to screw with some heads.

Nickname is wrong in a different way though.

On the bright side you both made very good arguments and stayed quite civil.
 

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