Swashbuckler vs Fighter/Scout to reach Dervish

[generaltwig]

Hi

Our campaign recently changed from 2nd ed to 3.5 and I've had to find a way to transpose my 4th level Bard (Blade kit) to 3.5. I was really enjoying fast, two-weapon fighting and a few useful abilities on the side like Weapons Display and called shots.

The 3.5 option I'm considering is to aim for the Dervish prestige class to enjoy twin scimitar dervish dancing. But on the way i'm not sure whats the optimal path.

My current build is a 3rd level swashbuckler fighting with two shortswords. Now where should I go with this?
Options as I see it are:

a) take Fighter levels for the next 2 levels (to get the extra bonus feats) and take the Daring Warrior feat (complete Scoundral p76) would still need to get at least level 5 Swashbuckler to enjoy the dodge bonus though. before going Dervish..

b) Stick with straight swashbuckler to level 5 and then take Dervish. (Would I have enough feats? or one short?)

c) but why bother with swashbuckler at all? His two seemingly cool early features are Insightful strike (+ Int modifier to damage) and Weapon Finese (+ dex modifier to hit roll instead of Str). But isnt it better to just keep pumping Strength as you level which adds to both? Or are the extra skills from Int and the extra AC from Dex worth splitting focus to those 2 Attributes?

I'm new to 3.5 and dont know how things pan out as you go...

d) a final thought if anyone has any ideas: Should I aim to get some Scout levels in there to use the skirmish ability for extra Damage? (Though how effective would this be seeing I really really want to keep using two swords so wouldnt be able to make full round attacks with them and also fulfill the 10 foot movement requirement to use skirmish each round?)

So the overall question i guess is for ideas on how to optimize a character to fight fast and deadly with two swords.

Also open to the idea of a perhaps simpler build of Swashbuckler crossed with some form of spellcaster which can cast lots of combat effective buffs and which would both use Int modifier (for Insightful strike and spells). Maybe a Swashbuckler-Warmage?

I'd be very grateful for any ideas on builds as i'm drowning in the amount of options/classes/feats available in the wealth of v3.5 rulebooks!

 

[Dandu]

Bards make great two weapon fighters if you pump inspire courage, take Dragonfire Inspiration, get Snowflake Wardance, and use a Crystal Echoblade, but it seems you've already selected Swashbuckler.

Two weapon fighting does not deal great damage unless you have a source of bonus damage like Sneak Attack, so taking levels in Rogue with the Daring Outlaw feat may be appropriate.

You will also want to look into the "Hit and Run" fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark, which is trades heavy armor and shield proficiency for +2 to initiative and the ability to add your dexterity modifier to damage when the opponent is flat-footed

 

[parinho7]

i say option (d). the way i see it you won't do the skirmish damage with your first attack but then after you take an other 5ft step while performing the dervish dance you'll add the damage to your next attacks.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

i say option (d). the way i see it you won't do the skirmish damage with your first attack but then after you take an other 5ft step while performing the dervish dance you'll add the damage to your next attacks.

The skirmish damage would be very low, though. I'll second Dandu's suggestion of Rogue with Daring Outlaw. You just need a means to get the enemy flanked reliably. Party casters can help with that, or the Use Magic Device skill can let you do it with a wand. At level 5, you now have Int to damage, weapon finesse, +3d6 sneak attack, Evasion, and some other goodies.

If it's not too late to do a complete character rebuild, you might also want to look at the Swordsage and Warblade from Tome of Battle. Both get the Tiger Claw discipline, which has lots of jump attack and two weapon maneuvers (Sudden Leap to jump as a swift action and get to melee to full attack; Wolf Fang Strike to attack with two weapons at -2 as a standard action, much later on the ability to pounce on a charge, etc...) along with other maneuvers that might help you out, and both work well as a mobile, skirmishing style attacker (I think Swordsage is slightly better for this, just my preference).
Tome of Battle introduces completely new mechanical systems into the game though, so that might turn the group off. It's classes are also an unabashed improvement over the original warrior classes.

 

[parinho7]

with 7 levels of scout he gets +2d6
improved skirmish +2d6
gloves of agile striking +2d6 (2200gp)
rogue's vest +1d6 (18000gp)
skirmisher boots +2 (3200gp)
and posibly boots of speed (12000gp)

6(or 8) out of 7(or 9) of his attacks will get a +7d6+2 damage bonus and he doesn't have to rely on anyone i don't say it's optimal i just make a suggestion. i also know that the damage of a rogue/swashbuckler can be much higher but i am giving an alternative in case he doesn't want to rely on others to flank his opponents (which i think it's preferable).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

with 7 levels of scout he gets +2d6
improved skirmish +2d6
gloves of agile striking +2d6 (2200gp)
rogue's vest +1d6 (18000gp)
skirmisher boots +2 (3200gp)
and posibly boots of speed (12000gp)

6(or 8) out of 7(or 9) of his attacks will get a +7d6+2 damage bonus and he doesn't have to rely on anyone i don't say it's optimal i just make a suggestion. i also know that the damage of a rogue/swashbuckler can be much higher but i am giving an alternative in case he doesn't want to rely on others to flank his opponents (which i think it's preferable).

With 7 levels of Scout he won't be far into Dervish before the campaign likely ends!

I meant, do Rogue/Swashbuckler AND go into Dervish. Maybe you meant that, too, but not with that many levels beforehand. Just won't work...

 

[Dandu]

And pick up Craven.

 

[Thanael]

Here's a thread about converting the 2E Blade kit to 3E: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-le...dition-bard-kit-updated-how-would-you-do.html. If you're allowed homebrew classes check out the 5 lvl Blade prc from that thread. Here's another excellent fanmade blade prc (I mean the 10 level one spelled out in the thread.)

The 2E Blade kit has 4 special powers: Trick Throw, Weapon's Display, Offensive/Defensive Spin and Weapon Use, otherwise it's a bard minus the singing and lore powers.

I'd convert a straight 2E blade to a Bard x/Swashbuckler3 or 5. Mixing in fighter or thug levels depending on how much spellcasting you want to have. Later possibly dips in assassin, duelist or master thrower. The Blade had no backstab (unless multiclassed) so rogue and scout are out for a strict conversion.

Definately look into the following alternate class feature for swashbucklers:

Shield of Blades (PHB 2, p 63): Lose dodge bonus, gain shield bonus when fighting with two weapons starting at +2 and rising as you gain levels.

Possible feats: Alertness, Blindfight, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Quick Draw, Defensive Strike[from CW], Flick of the Wrist [from CW], Silent Spell?, Shadow?, Precise Shot?, Snatch Arrows?, TWF, TWD, ITWF, ....

Defensive Strike is a nice approximation of the Defensive Spin power from the blade kit. Offensive Spin is a mixture of demoralize opponent intimidation skill use and the Inspire Awe alternate class feature for bards (Inspire Awe (DrM, p 13): Gain ability to inspire awe instead of courage).

There's a Weapon's Display like skill use in Complete Warrior named Perform(Weapon Drill). Also read up on the demoralize opponent skill use of intimidation. I'd convert / house rule the 2E Weapons Display in the following way: A blade is able to use intimidate:demoralize opponents and bard's:inspire courage with perform(weapon display). You might also want too look into the War Chanter prc from CW, I think it has a class feature that could be used for the blade's weapon display.

That leaves the Trick Throw and Handle Weapon powers of the blade kit. The former is similar to the thrown weapon tricks of the Master Thrower prestige class and the snatch arrows feat but i'd probably just drop that part. The latter is modeled nicely by taking feats from the TWF feat chain.


If you want to play a more fighter like Dervish that's a whole other thing. The blade bard was a performer/juggler and occasional assassin not a true fighter. Now you asked why one would prefer to play a Swashbuckler over a Fighter: One thing that is always overlooked with the Swashbuckler imho is skills and skillpoints. The swashbuckler gets more of both.

 

[Andion Isurand]

one level of cloistered cleric with knowledge and water devotions might help, using your create water orisons and turn attempts to create a water elemental flanker

another good thing about bard levels is they give you bardic knowledge, which can be replaced by the Bardic Knack ability from PHB2 to help you make skill checks with skills that don't get many ranks