Originally posted by StevenO:
Let's say I want to play the 'classic' dwarven warrior who goes into battle in his heavy armor with a shield strapped to one arm and a dwarven waraxe in the other. Sticking with this concept how would one go about optimizing those choices? I'm specifying a dwarf for this although I'd hope for ideas that could be used with other races and other weapon ideas.
Here are some limits I'm looking at using:
PB 28 for stats.
Preferably your basic, PHB Dwarf race although other racial options could be mentioned.
Favored class rules should be considered.
Build uses a 'real' shield (to avoid using a buckler or animated shield and then wielding a two-handed weapon), a one handed weapon, and wears heavy armor.
No psionics.
Minimal spellcasting (to avoid the "Just play a Cleric and abuse DMM Persistant Divine Power" issues)
For books I'd prefer Core (PHB, DMG) and Complete Series (include ToB) with other sources kept to a minimum if possible.
I definitely do not expect this to be "tier 1" or really even "tier 2" am curious how someone would optimize those selections.
I recognize that the "default" character for this concept like has levels in Fighter or Crusader but what does one do to 'optimize' that?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
You know, I've been thinking of this for a while too. Although I was less absolutist on psionics (dwarves are probably the most psi-friendly of the PHB races, given the existence of Duergar, and Races of Stone has some particularly good armor/shield options as [Psionic] feats), I'll see what can be done with purely martial stuff here.
I'll start with a minor warning: While you can make a half-competent charger or AoO tank using just PHB material, I don't think you can do the same with a shield user without resorting to floaty shields. I'll try to keep auxiliary sources to a minimum but they're still a necessity.
That said, shields have deceptively few specialist options on them in terms of feats, and I think all of them are in the PHB2. The best is probably Shield Ward, which allows your shield to improve your touch AC, helping patch a serious hole in heavy armor defenses. (Side note: My example of psi-friendliness from above shows up here: Deflective Armor in Races of Stone does something similar but with your armor bonus as well. It probably isn't worth the feat cost except on a fighter, though, and you can get something similar without a feat using the Ghostward property from the MIC (+1; armor/shield enhancement bonuses apply to touch AC).)
Offensively, there's a few PHB2 shield feats worth mentioning, but most of those are gimmicky. I've seen Shield Charge and Shield Slam used on the odd build or two, and it's possible but tricky to get some good use out of Blood-Spiked Charger (which technically uses the shield spikes rather than the shield itself, but it does require specialist shield training), but these are not good generalist feats. (The Robo Tackle build in my signature makes use of them, but I was specifically building for Blood-Spiked Charger there; the shield use was secondary.)
In terms of gear optimization, I've seen some clever (if expensive) enhancements for shields by making use of shield spikes as a secondary source of enhancements. The core-only "defensive" option involves Defending, letting you switch the shield spike enhancements over to AC, but this is expensive. There's better options out there but I'm away from my notes on this.
I'll see about consolidating this into something cohesive soon.
I'm not entirely sure what this question's asking in this context. I take it to mean "Given levels in Fighter or Crusader, what's the usual suggestions for optimization, assuming sword-and-board".
Crusaders can make decent use of the shield, but also work well without it (the low-level Shield Block maneuver lets them parry an attack aimed at themselves or an ally with a Shield bonus, but it doesn't actually require a shield to work - I suspect this might be a typo. The higher-level Shield Counter maneuver does require a shield, and it's actually pretty good if you're already committed to using a shield). The main defensive measure a crusader gets is Thicket of Blades, but that works best with a reach weapon. (There are two one-handed reach weapons I know of, both exotic, and neither particularly dwarven: the kusari-gama and the spinning sword.) Playing around with crusader, however, actually rewards multiclassing: their stance timing is atrocious, often getting new stances at levels where higher-level stances are not available. Taking a few levels of another warrior class - Fighter works in this example - isn't a bad call. I forget exactly how many or at what levels it's ideal; it depends on whether you're doing crusader as a primary class or as a dip into another class.
The only real advantage fighters have with one-handed weaponry + shield is that they can soak up the prerequisite feat costs that are arbitrarily asisgned to defensive fighting (i.e. almost all of the good feats require something like Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, or somesuch). They also get tower shield proficiency, if you want to use that clumsy thing; very few options I know of make good use of tower shields, and none of them are primary warriors.
...Hmm. A long time ago I redid the Dwarven Defender as a martial adept (switching its defensive stance into a stance overlay and designing it to link up with the Deepstone Sentinel if you wanted), and along the way it picked up a small number of bonus feats from a defensively-minded list.
[sblock]Player's Handbook: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Improved Shield Bash.
Expanded Psionics Handbook: Psionic Body*, Sidestep Charge, Stand Still.
Complete Warrior: Hold the Line, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Toughness, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Formation Expert.
Races of Stone: Deflective Armor*, Energize Armor*, Exotic Shield Proficiency, Focused Shield*, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, Heavy Armor Optimization, Invest Armor*.
Player's Handbook 2: Active Shield Defense, Agile Shield Fighter, Armor Specialization, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Steadfast Determination.
Tome of Battle: Devoted Bulwark, Ironheart Aura.
Described below: Fist of Moradin.
The * denote psionic feats. Formation Expert is there because the reworked defender got Phalanx Fighting as a bonus feat (with a couple tweaks; it's largely a useless feat included for fluff since it lets a defender lead his allies in a shield wall); I didn't expect it to see much use.
(Fist of Moradin was something I was testing: it let you use Constitution for Combat Reflexes, at the cost of not being able to voluntarily move more than 5 feet from your current position until the end of your next turn.)[/sblock] That might help narrow the list down somewhat. (The reworked class was designed to be entered by either crusaders or warblades, although a Fighter dip certainly helped (it's a Dwarf class; I figured it was appropriate to use their favored class) and a single-classed Fighter could enter it without too much hassle only a level late.)
Originally posted by The_Fred:
An Animated shield is all well and good, but that's a +2 bonus, so even when you can get one (it's going to cost over 9k) you won't want to right off, as you could get a +2 weapon or two stat-boosters or whatever for that kind of cash. Thus, I actually find that the typical "sword and board" is not to bad at low levels or when gear is limited.
Sure, it's not going to come out as cool as the ubercharge-and-kill-in-one-two-handed-power-attacking-hit kind of thing but the value of having a really high AC (especially at those levels) shouldn't be underestimated.
Mildly Mathematical Musings
[sblock]A L5 character can easily afford a +1 shield, a +1 weapon and +1 full plate, so you could be looking at an AC of 23 or higher (10+1 Dex+9 Full Plate+3 Heavy Shield) without buffing (maybe add a ring or amulet to that).
Even your typical Incarnate Dustform Orc Charger might be able to hit that but won't want to be Power Attacking too much on it (assuming base 16 Str for 24 Str, +5 BAB, +2 Charge, maybe +2 Reckless Offence or other = +16 so hits on a 7)[/sblock]
It also allows you to use two armour crystals and get more armour special properties more cheaply, as well as raw AC. Of course, if your DM allows Dastana and the Chahar-Aina then you can already do that without using up your hands, but using all four together is even better (forget magic armour; Full Plate + Heavy Shield + Dastana + Chahar-Aina = +12 already, and pretty cheap if you craft them).
The only thing is, at higher levels in particular it starts to seem as though the only point of having one would be for things like bash and Shield Slam, in which case why are you carrying a weapon, even?
Originally posted by draco1119:
There are some really good feats for dwarves in Races of Stone. One of my favorites for a sword&boarder was Tunnelback, which protects you from being flanked so long as you're adjacent to a wall (even if your opponents are actually in flosition, they're not flanking you).
Originally posted by StevenO:
That wasn't intended so much as a question about how to use Fighter and/or Crusader but rather that those seem like two of the more obvious ways to build a sword-n-board character.
I do seem to recall seeing a Shield bashing monster (Warforged I believe) that could make use of a shield but that wasn't really what I had in mind. Although it may be stretching things I guess I should have mentioned that the DMGII and PHBII could be considered "Core" books and frankly the big Compendiums (SC, MIC) can be considered as well but those would be more for fine tuning a character than outright building a character.
I think this is actually a somewhat interesting challenge because a shield is basically used for defense/AC but at higher levels those thing really don't mean so much.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I was leaving the Anmated Shield out of the discussion as aquiring one is mostly just an equipment choice if you're working at truly optimizing equipment. Yes, you still suffer the ACP and ASF when those matter but an Animated Shield doesn't really "cost" anything more than gold to use.
I also wanted to leave Bucklers out of the discussion because someone wielding a two-hander could strap one on and in exchange for the -1 attack (must assume a masterwork buckler here) gain the benefits from a shield's special properties. With the Improved Buckler Defense feat they could even gain AC benefits from the Buckler while still attacking with their two-handed weapon like almost nothing has happened.
It's a good thing you mention the "if your DM allows" because I for one would consider that armor stacking from Dastana and Chahar-Aina (what ever they are) as cheese and disallow it. At least I'd certainly disallow it if you tried telling me that you can put seperate enchantments on each of those pieces and still have them all work. I guess there are some super-heavy armors beyond Full-Plate that could be considered but this may be equipment optimization again as opposed to true character optimization.
Originally posted by aelryinth:
Ah, this brings back memories. I first posited the Uber Shield on these boards back in the day with a Sword and Board build, and attracted all sorts of attention from a guy who managed to get ten different accounts banned from these boards on that one thread.
And happily I can't even remember his name now.
Any kind of a shield build is going to be based around AC and having access to all three modes of fighting...S&B, TWF and 2H. Basically, sword and board can use one weapon, two weapon or a weapon in 2 hands.
The goal of a Sword and Board user is an Uber Shield: +5 Defender, +5 SPiked Shield of Bashing. As the only item in the game that can legally be enchanted as a weapon and shield at the same time, an uber shield can soak a tremendous amount of the character's gold.
Thus, you make the Shield the character's ancestral weapon. This way, he can sacrifice high value items directly to the shield, without having to sell them for half price, in order to enhance them. He doesn't need a caster level or anything. Those scrap magic items getting sold for half price? Give them to Ancestral Weapon guy, and he'll get full value for them buffing his shield.
The key feats of a Shield user are Improved Shield Bash, Shield Ward, and TWF. You generally aren't going to worry about getting all the possible attacks you can...Gloves of the Balanced Hand can give you an extra one. But the ability to get off an extra attack against mooks is useful, and it doesn't cost you your AC to do it with Improved Shield Bash.
I forget the precise wording of Shield Ward, but I'm pretty sure it added to more then just Touch AC.
Basically, you get Defender on your Uber SHield to also up your AC. Then you get a stone of Missile Deflection, slap it on your shield, and raise your ranged AC another 4 points, in addition to deflecting the first missile tossed your way. Your defense against ranged touch attacks with JUST your shield can hit +15.
Note also that your shield can also be equipped with energy resistances just like any peice of armor. And at half the cost of putting it on your suit, if Ancestral Weapon is in play.
"Wielding' a shield, unlike most weapons, is very easy...you are always carrying it. THus, you can generally keep Defender going on it all the time when not fighting, unlike most Defending weapons.
With Ancestral Weapon, an uber shield is 54k....72k for +5 defender and 36k for +5 Bashing, cut in half. You'll be getting your awesome shield about the same time as the next guy in the party is grabbing his +5 weapon.
If you Specialize in the shield, you can put Aptitude on your Waraxe, take weapon focus, and pop a +1/+1 in addition to getting all the specialization benefits of the shield. However, note the Melee Weapon Mastery isn't going to stack...waraxes do slashing, and shields are piercing with spikes, blud if not. You might want to use a shortsword, and trade up to a Sun sword, which can do piercing dmg if wielded as a short sword, but a Dwarven Waraxe is just so classic a choice...
You could also make your shield your primary weapon, but then you have to consider what use your off hand is going to be. A spiked Heavy Shield is a 2-12 20/x2 dmg, so definitely not horrible for one handed. I'm a little fuzzy on what could be used effectively in the 'off' hand with constant benefits if you go this way.
There are a ton of shield feats out there, and I'm afraid I dont remember them all. I belive there's one that gives you a free Bull Rush with a SHield Bash, which would work very well with a Dungeon Crasher build.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
...I hadn't considered Aptitude. That's a good call. Incidentally, if it's worth it, there is precedent for armor spikes that do slashing damage - although I don't recall them showing up explicitly. The Lord of Blades makes use of armor razors instead of armor spikes; they're identical to spikes in all ways except they deal slashing damage. Presumably, the same could happen on a shield (say, a razor-edged rim), which would allow slashing-only feats to spread between the shield and the axe. (Alternatively, switching to a spear, like the piercing end of the Dwarven Urgrosh, would probably be simpler.)
Aelryinth largely refers to equipment, but sources on the other materials are: Ancestral Relic (not Ancestral Weapon) is in the Book of Exalted Deeds (it's not an exalted feat or anything, but for some reason it's a Good-only feat. OA Samurai gets a virtually identical ability as their level 1 "feat" (the OA samurai is basically the Fighter with more skill points and a slightly more limited bonus feat list, trading level 1's bonus feat for this ability), although it's limited to their family swords), Shield Ward (PHB2) adds to your touch AC and to your checks to resist several combat maneuvers (bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, or trip), and to my knowledge there isn't a specific one for bull rushes. There's Shield Charge (trip on a charging shield slam) and Shield Slam (Full-Round-Action shield bash to daze an opponent). The best way I know of to get a shield to bull rush on a hit is with the Brutal Surge enhancement (MIC).
Incidentally, apart from Ancestral Weapon, I used all of these on Robo Tackle(x). Which is also a Dungeon Crasher build.
I second the arrow deflection crystal, although I'll carify that the least gives +2 AC vs all ranged attacks (including rays!), the lesser gives +5, and the greater gives +5 and the benefits of Deflect Arrows. The lesser is the best bang for your buck (2500 gp and it only requires a +1 shield to use, so it's online pretty early). Incidentally, the bonus is untyped. (I use these gems on my hexblade, although there I'm using a buckler. In fact, these gems are entirely the reason I'm using that buckler.)
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Armour razors do show up in an official capacity somewhere, though I don't recall exactly where, offhand. One of the books related to the Underdark, I think.
You don't necessarily need to choose too much on shield crystals if you're happy strapping a bunch of physically useless mini-bucklers to one arm, since shields and weapons don't have magic item slot limits. This would be more useful if you really had a lot of good things to enchant onto shields, or a wide variety of desirable shield crystals.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
If you are using your shield to attack... well, with Bashing, I do like that option, but then you don't really need the sword to go with your "board". I do have a charater who uses a kusari-gama in that hand. He doesn't even TWF or anything, it's just for utility, as he can attack people with his shield yet still take AoOs if they try to 5ft-step back to cast, for example (or trip then 5ft-step in and get a vs-prone Shield Bash AoO). But I think he's kind of better off just holding a dorje or something (PsyWar).
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
The thing with the Dastana is that they'll probably get in the way of wearing bracers and/or gauntlets, at least physically, if not magically.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Hmm. True. If they do, you can probably enchant them as bracers, though.
Originally posted by aelryinth:
I didn't cover armor because I assumed bracers+Armor was a no-brainer. Bracers+1 of Heavy Fortification and Full Plate+5 costs 61k. Full Plate+5 of Heavy Fortification costs 100k. And you've still got lots of room left over for other things on your armor...although you're likely to put them on your shield first.
I'm pretty sure there's razor shields out there somewhere, which would definitely solve your Melee Weapon Mastery pickle. If you can do that, you should be able to get Weapon Supremacy on two weapons with APtitude going, although it eats a lot of feats to do it.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by StevenO:
This is certainly interesting. For what could be considered a classic fighting style it is begining to look like the only "optimization" to fighting with a weapon and shield either involves using the shield as a weapon, which rather defeats the purpose of fighting with a weapon and shield, or what kind of equipment gimics/optimization you can do. Of course much of the "enchant the hell out of the shield" stuff also can apply to a buckler or animated shield which then allows for two-handed weapons to be used.
Maybe I should ask "What are the optimizations for someone who wants to weild a one-handed weapon without having restrictions on the other hand?"
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
I think the biggest importance here is on what your second arm is getting from it's use.
Two handed weapons are by far the most preferable use due to Ubercharging and abilities such as Thicket of Blades that can damage and control the battlefield against monsters and NPCs alike. Even when it comes to the feat and gold costs, it's still a cheaper investment than the alternatives.
The TWF tree are feat expensive to take, very expensive in gold to use, gives poor damage and bonus return for their investments, and in general are not that good.
Empty hands are more or less a waste. There's nothing these can do that something else couldn't do better barring holding a disarmed opponents weapon.
Shields can give the second (set of) attack(s) and additional defenses. However those defenses are relatively minor compared to the defenses of killing someone faster or battlefield control. Very few shields are acceptable for Weapon Finesse to get Dex synergy and it still suffers most of the normal problems of TWF.
All that being said I'll stumble though a try:
Show
[sblock]Levels: Barbarian 1-2, Other???
Required Feats: Improves Shield Bash, TWF, TW Pounce, Oversized TWF, Shield Ward, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Improved Trip B, Shield Specialization (Heavy)
Weapons: 2 spiked Mithral Gauntlet Shields.
That's right, you're TWF with shields. Gauntlet Shields leave your hands free to hold and use everything but weapons. You charge and attempt to trip and daze your opponent since they are likely to have survived the damage of the initial charge. By maximizing your shield attacks you get more attempts to pull off debilitation on charges.
Side mention, while you receive two shield bonuses by RAW there's no way they can stack. In this specific case, I find that stupid and illogical but there you have it.[/sblock]
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
If you're going to use your shield as a weapon avoid MAD by doing a two level Ranger dip, and taking Gloves of the Balanced Hand. Other than possibly Furious Counterattack and Inspire Courage I can't think of many good sources for extra damage while using this as one of your weapons.
Possibly consider a Ranger 2/Bard 2/Crusader 16 option in that regard. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting allows halfway decent power attack returns as well, or just take the penalty and use the feat some better way, the bonus's garnered via Furious Counterstrike and Inspire Courage will more than offset the ugly -4 for a larger offhand weapon.
Originally posted by draco1119:
If the AC bonus from TW Defense is untyped, you could use that and get (best shield's AC) + 1.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Sadly, that's a Shield bonus which won't stack with your normal shield.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Damn! That was the "if not".
Originally posted by The_Fred:
It seems as though, if you're using the sheild to attack, you're better of just using the shield as it's probably going to be more effective (thanks, Bashing!) than your main hand, and gives you AC too. You can TWF, but why not just TWF with two shields (stupid as it is)?
If you just want it for defence... well, there might be some things you can do with a Tower Shield (using the cover etc) but that's a whole other story.
With, say, Shield Specialisation and Focused Shield you can get a +2 on top of the +2 from a Heavy Shield, plus any enhancement bonuses, which is not bad, but then you're just burning feats for AC. May as well be a kobold and take Improved Natural Armour; it's a pretty lame return.
Shielded Casting/Manifesting protects you from AoOs (combine with a Caster's Shield?) but at higher levels you don't really need that anyway (and it doesn't seem to be what you're going for).
Hmm. The only other thing I can think of is everyone's favourite Dwarf PrC, the Ironsoul Forgemaster. He can get energy resistance from his shield... though again, he could do that with a buckler, too.
Looks like shields can be pretty neat at low levels, but like many things start to lag at higher levels.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
These are the most recent handbooks:
mmx ---> www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=868...
and before that
bg ---> brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
... but yeah, there's hasn't been all that much else since; except here + now.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I see part of the problem with S&B is that you only have the feats and other things to spend on one side of your character's ability.
Originally posted by Caker:
Sanctified one of Wee Jas can get you another +5 shield bonus, combine with uncanny trickster/legacy champion cheese to increase it to a total of +18. With the feat Inlindl School(DotU) you can convert half that to attack bonus with light weapons/fineseable weapons, meaning a +9 bonus. Not sure what you can do with this, but there you go.
Originally posted by Kingofswing:
classes: Barbarian 2 fighter 3 stone blesses gnome 3 deep warden 2 exotic master 3 whatever 7
this would be a good starting point I think
barbarian giving you +4 to str and con
+ 2 to con fron stone blessed
con to AC in place of dex
now feats
endurance : I know it sucks but needed for deep wwarden
dodge: again not the greatest but needed for the next feat
titan fighting: gives you AC bonus vs giants to anyone larger then you since you are stone blessed gnome that is a + 8 to AC for anyone large and up and to boot you now qualify for gnome giant killer and blade bravo if you want to go dex base but that would be dumb with this bubuilds
the one thing you will have to do is have a caster make you small. Or start out as a gnome and take the same build but take stone blessed dwarf
Originally posted by Caker:
And that pertains to this thread how?
Originally posted by Kingofswing:
He is looking for a dwarf build well there is one there
Originally posted by draco1119:
Really, dood?! Try reading THE THREAD TITLE sometime. M'kay, pumpkin?
Originally posted by aelryinth:
If your campaign is going to allow Improved Buckler Defense, you may as well skip any thoughts of a classic shield build.
Shield AC + Two handed weapon power? For one feat? Yeah, who gives a whoop about shield bashing. Spend a feat on that, Shield Spec and Shield Ward, and you're all good to go.
You could do the same with an animated shield, but that's a +2 Enhancement, which is going to delay the AC. You're better off with an ubercharger build with the three feats above tacked on for extra AC love.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by Caker:
Dual wield heavy steel shields, or extreme shields. Use the above trick I posted and charge with shield charge, taking the AC from one of them and adding it to the attack of the other (There is an enchantment that let's you finesse any weapon IIRC), while still keeping the increased AC from the one you didn't take it from. Make sure you pounce, and make a bunch of trip/daze attempts. Feat intensive, but doable. I could work something up if anyone was interested in it.
Originally posted by StevenO:
IBD = spend feat at take -1 on your attack in exchange for the stuff that a shield can give. Don't care about a +1 or +2 shield bonus? Just wear the buckler and screw the feat yet still enjoy all the miscellaneous things a shiled can be enchanted with as (I believe) all IBD does is let you keep the AC bonus which you normally give up.
The Anmated Shield is simply an equipment choice.
That's not a Sword and Board concept however.
It's sad when it appears that a shield can be 'wielded' as a weapon while maintaining its use as a shield more easily than it is to use an actual weapon with a shield.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Was there a feat or PrC or something which let you cast somatic spells whilst holding a weapon? I'm thinking sword-and-board gish with Shielded Casting. EDIT: Ah, Somatic Weaponry [CM]! Or a Shield Gauntlet.
RE Improved Buckler Defence... well, it does cost the -1 to AB, and a feat. At higher levels especially, if you're Power Attacking then the +2 damage from PA is worth more than a -1, so for the benefit of a shield to be worth more than +2 PA damage (assuming you're taking a -2 or more with PA) it also has to be worth more than that -1 AB. At low levels, though, an AB hit is not really what you want (and you can easily get +6-8 for a -2 with Combat Expertise; taking -1 for +1-2 with a Buckler is less of a return).
It just seems as though a shield is not going to be great at high levels - though I think at low levels it could be very handy indeed.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I know the 'cost" of IBD. I could point out that if you are already "power attacking to the max" then I'm not sure the -1 penalty for using the buckler needs to be factored in. It may be a penalty but it's not like it lowers your BAB one bit. Sometime I think people forget that if you have multiple things that are limited by your BAB they are all individually limited; you can max out Power Attack and (Improved) Combat Expertise even if it takes your final attack "bonus" well into the negatives. I'll say I'm not seeing where you could "easily" get a +6 to +8 AC bonus by taking a -2 attack penalty with Combat Expertise; at least now with the investment of a single feat.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
The only other cheese (it's only semi-cheese anyway)
... is to use the Titan Bloodline 12 ability.
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodli...
And it hasn't really been hashed out.
I was using it for Psi Monk Tash Crazy Dip weirdness,
so I don't know what Sword And Board can do with it.
Still, really big shield in one hand, and sorta-really big
sword (or any weapon) in the other, might do something.
It's a long time to wait 12 levels, for a Key to a build.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Now, maybe using a shield and Combat Expertise, perhaps with something like Active Shield Defence, could work out... you'd want to AoO tank, though, which would mean a kusari-gama (or maybe being Large) since you're holding a shield (unless, of course, you use a buckler).
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Now, the problems with this build is that you have to pay the entry fee for the PrC of Heavy Armor proficiency and Scribe Scroll, it intimately ties you to your shield (beware of sunder monsters), and you're no real good in melee beyond what your casting provides. However for the low optimization games that I've been in, the build works fine with something as basic as Fighter 1/ Wizard 3/ Runesmith 3 and latter prestige classing into Eldritch Knight for BAB progression.
I know this is very basic as far as optimization goes but I feel this very strongly fits the style of the character requested even if not the substance asked for or level of optimization expected.
Originally posted by StevenO:
To be honest my "no gish" rule is directed far more at thosoe who believe a full spellcaster is always the way to go. I'm not looking for what could be called a "spellcaster" who can fight although a fighter who casts some spells maybe alright. I'm not quite sure what the distinction may be but if an S&B fighter needs to be able to cast 9th or even 8th level (maybe even 7th level) spells it is too much "caster" for my tastes. Heavy armor and arcane spellcasting also don't go together so well in most cases.
I'll admit I certainly consider a single caster dip and five levels of Abjurant Champion for what may otherwise be "fighting" builds although in the context of S&B one of the AbC's greater assets (quickened, extended, super powered Shield spell) isn't utilized.
Originally posted by draco1119:
I've got some ideas rattling around. I'll try to get a build posted in the next day or two.
Originally posted by StevenO:
Maybe I should ask: What houserules could be used that wouldn't break a shield but would make it a more attractive option?
Would having the AC a non-Buckler shield provides increase with BAB be enough to make it useful at higher levels? Say for every +5 BAB a character has light, medium, and heavier Shields provide an additional +1 shield bonus to AC or to make it more interesting provide a +1 dodge bonus to AC thus having it work with touch attacks.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Giving you something to do with that hand that isn't a bash would go a long way, particularly if it's active rather than passive. Making use of swifts or immediates might also work. Giving light and heavy shields the ability to operate as a Wall of Blades style block would make shield use a lot more active, having Shield Ward on heavy shields by default would make them a lot more interesting against casters (although they'd probably be destroyed by the first few rays sent your way) or AoO tanks who focus on trips, and having them interact with Combat Expertise the way a two-hander works with Power Attack might open up some interesting options (albeit somewhat more passively unless you're also a kalashtar).
Originally posted by frost.fire:
I think an easy homebrew idea would be to create a martial discipline which rewards fighting with a s&b fighting style. This would maximize the swifts and immediates that Tempest refered to but also to encourage that style over top of a tradition 2hf or twf. Another would perhaps be a feat where you can reduce your sheild bonus for a bonus to special combat maneuvers (tripping/disarm/grapple?) One final homebrew thought would be a feat that you can use your sheild boni to add to things such as damage and hit.
Edit: also a feat that improves base reach with a sheild for some reason (more mechanical then anything but also handy)
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I wouldn't do a discipline - you don't want the fundamentals of a basic combat effect to be locked in the Sublime Way.
One other possibility: Introduce tactical scissors-paper-stone effects. There's already one such effect in the game, but it's a terrible never-used feat (Pin Shield: a TWFer can deny a target their shield using his off-hand weapon). Imagine a hypothetical where a similar effect could be used by shields against two-handers (say, exploiting the large openings a two-hander necessarily gives you, in effect giving you something akin to Sidestep Charge as you push away your attacker with your shield), and two-handers against TWFers (Not immediately sure how this would work, largely due to TWF being quirky and not being used in its historical parry/feint forms). The "one-hander and empty-hand" style and unarmed combat style would be the place for exotic martial arts abilities outside this cycle. This, incidentally, also favors people who use light shields who can quickly switch between the three different forms in addition to having a counter for two-handed weapons. It's a bigger sweeping change than the ones I suggested earlier, but it's a big-picture thought.
Let's say I want to play the 'classic' dwarven warrior who goes into battle in his heavy armor with a shield strapped to one arm and a dwarven waraxe in the other. Sticking with this concept how would one go about optimizing those choices? I'm specifying a dwarf for this although I'd hope for ideas that could be used with other races and other weapon ideas.
Here are some limits I'm looking at using:
PB 28 for stats.
Preferably your basic, PHB Dwarf race although other racial options could be mentioned.
Favored class rules should be considered.
Build uses a 'real' shield (to avoid using a buckler or animated shield and then wielding a two-handed weapon), a one handed weapon, and wears heavy armor.
No psionics.
Minimal spellcasting (to avoid the "Just play a Cleric and abuse DMM Persistant Divine Power" issues)
For books I'd prefer Core (PHB, DMG) and Complete Series (include ToB) with other sources kept to a minimum if possible.
I definitely do not expect this to be "tier 1" or really even "tier 2" am curious how someone would optimize those selections.
I recognize that the "default" character for this concept like has levels in Fighter or Crusader but what does one do to 'optimize' that?
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
You know, I've been thinking of this for a while too. Although I was less absolutist on psionics (dwarves are probably the most psi-friendly of the PHB races, given the existence of Duergar, and Races of Stone has some particularly good armor/shield options as [Psionic] feats), I'll see what can be done with purely martial stuff here.
I'll start with a minor warning: While you can make a half-competent charger or AoO tank using just PHB material, I don't think you can do the same with a shield user without resorting to floaty shields. I'll try to keep auxiliary sources to a minimum but they're still a necessity.
That said, shields have deceptively few specialist options on them in terms of feats, and I think all of them are in the PHB2. The best is probably Shield Ward, which allows your shield to improve your touch AC, helping patch a serious hole in heavy armor defenses. (Side note: My example of psi-friendliness from above shows up here: Deflective Armor in Races of Stone does something similar but with your armor bonus as well. It probably isn't worth the feat cost except on a fighter, though, and you can get something similar without a feat using the Ghostward property from the MIC (+1; armor/shield enhancement bonuses apply to touch AC).)
Offensively, there's a few PHB2 shield feats worth mentioning, but most of those are gimmicky. I've seen Shield Charge and Shield Slam used on the odd build or two, and it's possible but tricky to get some good use out of Blood-Spiked Charger (which technically uses the shield spikes rather than the shield itself, but it does require specialist shield training), but these are not good generalist feats. (The Robo Tackle build in my signature makes use of them, but I was specifically building for Blood-Spiked Charger there; the shield use was secondary.)
In terms of gear optimization, I've seen some clever (if expensive) enhancements for shields by making use of shield spikes as a secondary source of enhancements. The core-only "defensive" option involves Defending, letting you switch the shield spike enhancements over to AC, but this is expensive. There's better options out there but I'm away from my notes on this.
I'll see about consolidating this into something cohesive soon.
I'm not entirely sure what this question's asking in this context. I take it to mean "Given levels in Fighter or Crusader, what's the usual suggestions for optimization, assuming sword-and-board".
Crusaders can make decent use of the shield, but also work well without it (the low-level Shield Block maneuver lets them parry an attack aimed at themselves or an ally with a Shield bonus, but it doesn't actually require a shield to work - I suspect this might be a typo. The higher-level Shield Counter maneuver does require a shield, and it's actually pretty good if you're already committed to using a shield). The main defensive measure a crusader gets is Thicket of Blades, but that works best with a reach weapon. (There are two one-handed reach weapons I know of, both exotic, and neither particularly dwarven: the kusari-gama and the spinning sword.) Playing around with crusader, however, actually rewards multiclassing: their stance timing is atrocious, often getting new stances at levels where higher-level stances are not available. Taking a few levels of another warrior class - Fighter works in this example - isn't a bad call. I forget exactly how many or at what levels it's ideal; it depends on whether you're doing crusader as a primary class or as a dip into another class.
The only real advantage fighters have with one-handed weaponry + shield is that they can soak up the prerequisite feat costs that are arbitrarily asisgned to defensive fighting (i.e. almost all of the good feats require something like Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, or somesuch). They also get tower shield proficiency, if you want to use that clumsy thing; very few options I know of make good use of tower shields, and none of them are primary warriors.
...Hmm. A long time ago I redid the Dwarven Defender as a martial adept (switching its defensive stance into a stance overlay and designing it to link up with the Deepstone Sentinel if you wanted), and along the way it picked up a small number of bonus feats from a defensively-minded list.
[sblock]Player's Handbook: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Improved Shield Bash.
Expanded Psionics Handbook: Psionic Body*, Sidestep Charge, Stand Still.
Complete Warrior: Hold the Line, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Toughness, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Formation Expert.
Races of Stone: Deflective Armor*, Energize Armor*, Exotic Shield Proficiency, Focused Shield*, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, Heavy Armor Optimization, Invest Armor*.
Player's Handbook 2: Active Shield Defense, Agile Shield Fighter, Armor Specialization, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Steadfast Determination.
Tome of Battle: Devoted Bulwark, Ironheart Aura.
Described below: Fist of Moradin.
The * denote psionic feats. Formation Expert is there because the reworked defender got Phalanx Fighting as a bonus feat (with a couple tweaks; it's largely a useless feat included for fluff since it lets a defender lead his allies in a shield wall); I didn't expect it to see much use.
(Fist of Moradin was something I was testing: it let you use Constitution for Combat Reflexes, at the cost of not being able to voluntarily move more than 5 feet from your current position until the end of your next turn.)[/sblock] That might help narrow the list down somewhat. (The reworked class was designed to be entered by either crusaders or warblades, although a Fighter dip certainly helped (it's a Dwarf class; I figured it was appropriate to use their favored class) and a single-classed Fighter could enter it without too much hassle only a level late.)
Originally posted by The_Fred:
An Animated shield is all well and good, but that's a +2 bonus, so even when you can get one (it's going to cost over 9k) you won't want to right off, as you could get a +2 weapon or two stat-boosters or whatever for that kind of cash. Thus, I actually find that the typical "sword and board" is not to bad at low levels or when gear is limited.
Sure, it's not going to come out as cool as the ubercharge-and-kill-in-one-two-handed-power-attacking-hit kind of thing but the value of having a really high AC (especially at those levels) shouldn't be underestimated.
Mildly Mathematical Musings
[sblock]A L5 character can easily afford a +1 shield, a +1 weapon and +1 full plate, so you could be looking at an AC of 23 or higher (10+1 Dex+9 Full Plate+3 Heavy Shield) without buffing (maybe add a ring or amulet to that).
Even your typical Incarnate Dustform Orc Charger might be able to hit that but won't want to be Power Attacking too much on it (assuming base 16 Str for 24 Str, +5 BAB, +2 Charge, maybe +2 Reckless Offence or other = +16 so hits on a 7)[/sblock]
It also allows you to use two armour crystals and get more armour special properties more cheaply, as well as raw AC. Of course, if your DM allows Dastana and the Chahar-Aina then you can already do that without using up your hands, but using all four together is even better (forget magic armour; Full Plate + Heavy Shield + Dastana + Chahar-Aina = +12 already, and pretty cheap if you craft them).
The only thing is, at higher levels in particular it starts to seem as though the only point of having one would be for things like bash and Shield Slam, in which case why are you carrying a weapon, even?
Originally posted by draco1119:
There are some really good feats for dwarves in Races of Stone. One of my favorites for a sword&boarder was Tunnelback, which protects you from being flanked so long as you're adjacent to a wall (even if your opponents are actually in flosition, they're not flanking you).
Originally posted by StevenO:
That wasn't intended so much as a question about how to use Fighter and/or Crusader but rather that those seem like two of the more obvious ways to build a sword-n-board character.
I do seem to recall seeing a Shield bashing monster (Warforged I believe) that could make use of a shield but that wasn't really what I had in mind. Although it may be stretching things I guess I should have mentioned that the DMGII and PHBII could be considered "Core" books and frankly the big Compendiums (SC, MIC) can be considered as well but those would be more for fine tuning a character than outright building a character.
I think this is actually a somewhat interesting challenge because a shield is basically used for defense/AC but at higher levels those thing really don't mean so much.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I was leaving the Anmated Shield out of the discussion as aquiring one is mostly just an equipment choice if you're working at truly optimizing equipment. Yes, you still suffer the ACP and ASF when those matter but an Animated Shield doesn't really "cost" anything more than gold to use.
I also wanted to leave Bucklers out of the discussion because someone wielding a two-hander could strap one on and in exchange for the -1 attack (must assume a masterwork buckler here) gain the benefits from a shield's special properties. With the Improved Buckler Defense feat they could even gain AC benefits from the Buckler while still attacking with their two-handed weapon like almost nothing has happened.
It's a good thing you mention the "if your DM allows" because I for one would consider that armor stacking from Dastana and Chahar-Aina (what ever they are) as cheese and disallow it. At least I'd certainly disallow it if you tried telling me that you can put seperate enchantments on each of those pieces and still have them all work. I guess there are some super-heavy armors beyond Full-Plate that could be considered but this may be equipment optimization again as opposed to true character optimization.
Originally posted by aelryinth:
Ah, this brings back memories. I first posited the Uber Shield on these boards back in the day with a Sword and Board build, and attracted all sorts of attention from a guy who managed to get ten different accounts banned from these boards on that one thread.
And happily I can't even remember his name now.
Any kind of a shield build is going to be based around AC and having access to all three modes of fighting...S&B, TWF and 2H. Basically, sword and board can use one weapon, two weapon or a weapon in 2 hands.
The goal of a Sword and Board user is an Uber Shield: +5 Defender, +5 SPiked Shield of Bashing. As the only item in the game that can legally be enchanted as a weapon and shield at the same time, an uber shield can soak a tremendous amount of the character's gold.
Thus, you make the Shield the character's ancestral weapon. This way, he can sacrifice high value items directly to the shield, without having to sell them for half price, in order to enhance them. He doesn't need a caster level or anything. Those scrap magic items getting sold for half price? Give them to Ancestral Weapon guy, and he'll get full value for them buffing his shield.
The key feats of a Shield user are Improved Shield Bash, Shield Ward, and TWF. You generally aren't going to worry about getting all the possible attacks you can...Gloves of the Balanced Hand can give you an extra one. But the ability to get off an extra attack against mooks is useful, and it doesn't cost you your AC to do it with Improved Shield Bash.
I forget the precise wording of Shield Ward, but I'm pretty sure it added to more then just Touch AC.
Basically, you get Defender on your Uber SHield to also up your AC. Then you get a stone of Missile Deflection, slap it on your shield, and raise your ranged AC another 4 points, in addition to deflecting the first missile tossed your way. Your defense against ranged touch attacks with JUST your shield can hit +15.
Note also that your shield can also be equipped with energy resistances just like any peice of armor. And at half the cost of putting it on your suit, if Ancestral Weapon is in play.
"Wielding' a shield, unlike most weapons, is very easy...you are always carrying it. THus, you can generally keep Defender going on it all the time when not fighting, unlike most Defending weapons.
With Ancestral Weapon, an uber shield is 54k....72k for +5 defender and 36k for +5 Bashing, cut in half. You'll be getting your awesome shield about the same time as the next guy in the party is grabbing his +5 weapon.
If you Specialize in the shield, you can put Aptitude on your Waraxe, take weapon focus, and pop a +1/+1 in addition to getting all the specialization benefits of the shield. However, note the Melee Weapon Mastery isn't going to stack...waraxes do slashing, and shields are piercing with spikes, blud if not. You might want to use a shortsword, and trade up to a Sun sword, which can do piercing dmg if wielded as a short sword, but a Dwarven Waraxe is just so classic a choice...
You could also make your shield your primary weapon, but then you have to consider what use your off hand is going to be. A spiked Heavy Shield is a 2-12 20/x2 dmg, so definitely not horrible for one handed. I'm a little fuzzy on what could be used effectively in the 'off' hand with constant benefits if you go this way.
There are a ton of shield feats out there, and I'm afraid I dont remember them all. I belive there's one that gives you a free Bull Rush with a SHield Bash, which would work very well with a Dungeon Crasher build.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
...I hadn't considered Aptitude. That's a good call. Incidentally, if it's worth it, there is precedent for armor spikes that do slashing damage - although I don't recall them showing up explicitly. The Lord of Blades makes use of armor razors instead of armor spikes; they're identical to spikes in all ways except they deal slashing damage. Presumably, the same could happen on a shield (say, a razor-edged rim), which would allow slashing-only feats to spread between the shield and the axe. (Alternatively, switching to a spear, like the piercing end of the Dwarven Urgrosh, would probably be simpler.)
Aelryinth largely refers to equipment, but sources on the other materials are: Ancestral Relic (not Ancestral Weapon) is in the Book of Exalted Deeds (it's not an exalted feat or anything, but for some reason it's a Good-only feat. OA Samurai gets a virtually identical ability as their level 1 "feat" (the OA samurai is basically the Fighter with more skill points and a slightly more limited bonus feat list, trading level 1's bonus feat for this ability), although it's limited to their family swords), Shield Ward (PHB2) adds to your touch AC and to your checks to resist several combat maneuvers (bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, or trip), and to my knowledge there isn't a specific one for bull rushes. There's Shield Charge (trip on a charging shield slam) and Shield Slam (Full-Round-Action shield bash to daze an opponent). The best way I know of to get a shield to bull rush on a hit is with the Brutal Surge enhancement (MIC).
Incidentally, apart from Ancestral Weapon, I used all of these on Robo Tackle(x). Which is also a Dungeon Crasher build.
I second the arrow deflection crystal, although I'll carify that the least gives +2 AC vs all ranged attacks (including rays!), the lesser gives +5, and the greater gives +5 and the benefits of Deflect Arrows. The lesser is the best bang for your buck (2500 gp and it only requires a +1 shield to use, so it's online pretty early). Incidentally, the bonus is untyped. (I use these gems on my hexblade, although there I'm using a buckler. In fact, these gems are entirely the reason I'm using that buckler.)
That's Stoneback; its prerequisite is Tunnel Fighting (no AC penalty for "squeezing"). Oddly, I'd almost forgotten about that feat.
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
Armour razors do show up in an official capacity somewhere, though I don't recall exactly where, offhand. One of the books related to the Underdark, I think.
You don't necessarily need to choose too much on shield crystals if you're happy strapping a bunch of physically useless mini-bucklers to one arm, since shields and weapons don't have magic item slot limits. This would be more useful if you really had a lot of good things to enchant onto shields, or a wide variety of desirable shield crystals.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
The Dastana and Chahar-Aina are from Oriental Adventurers (the Dastana also from the AEG) and might thus not be allowed since they're 3.0. However, the explicitly state that they stack. I would be tempted though to rule that enhancement bonuses don't stack due to being enhancement bonuses (I've allowed it in the past, but yeah you can get a +1 for four for the price of a single +2, and if they're masterwork you don't even have an armour check penalty); still, you could get a +1 Blinding (for sake of argument) Shield and +1 Light Fortification Dastana, say; you only get one +1, but the special properties are cheaper.
If you are using your shield to attack... well, with Bashing, I do like that option, but then you don't really need the sword to go with your "board". I do have a charater who uses a kusari-gama in that hand. He doesn't even TWF or anything, it's just for utility, as he can attack people with his shield yet still take AoOs if they try to 5ft-step back to cast, for example (or trip then 5ft-step in and get a vs-prone Shield Bash AoO). But I think he's kind of better off just holding a dorje or something (PsyWar).
Originally posted by Slagger_the_Chuul:
The thing with the Dastana is that they'll probably get in the way of wearing bracers and/or gauntlets, at least physically, if not magically.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Hmm. True. If they do, you can probably enchant them as bracers, though.
Originally posted by aelryinth:
I didn't cover armor because I assumed bracers+Armor was a no-brainer. Bracers+1 of Heavy Fortification and Full Plate+5 costs 61k. Full Plate+5 of Heavy Fortification costs 100k. And you've still got lots of room left over for other things on your armor...although you're likely to put them on your shield first.
I'm pretty sure there's razor shields out there somewhere, which would definitely solve your Melee Weapon Mastery pickle. If you can do that, you should be able to get Weapon Supremacy on two weapons with APtitude going, although it eats a lot of feats to do it.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by StevenO:
This is certainly interesting. For what could be considered a classic fighting style it is begining to look like the only "optimization" to fighting with a weapon and shield either involves using the shield as a weapon, which rather defeats the purpose of fighting with a weapon and shield, or what kind of equipment gimics/optimization you can do. Of course much of the "enchant the hell out of the shield" stuff also can apply to a buckler or animated shield which then allows for two-handed weapons to be used.
Maybe I should ask "What are the optimizations for someone who wants to weild a one-handed weapon without having restrictions on the other hand?"
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
I think the biggest importance here is on what your second arm is getting from it's use.
- Shields provide defenses and can act as a seconds weapon when TWF
- Two handed weapons give the most bonuses to combat actions like Power Attack or Disarm, also the most common source of reach
- A second weapon for TWF
- An empty hand to pick up/grab stuff
Two handed weapons are by far the most preferable use due to Ubercharging and abilities such as Thicket of Blades that can damage and control the battlefield against monsters and NPCs alike. Even when it comes to the feat and gold costs, it's still a cheaper investment than the alternatives.
The TWF tree are feat expensive to take, very expensive in gold to use, gives poor damage and bonus return for their investments, and in general are not that good.
Empty hands are more or less a waste. There's nothing these can do that something else couldn't do better barring holding a disarmed opponents weapon.
Shields can give the second (set of) attack(s) and additional defenses. However those defenses are relatively minor compared to the defenses of killing someone faster or battlefield control. Very few shields are acceptable for Weapon Finesse to get Dex synergy and it still suffers most of the normal problems of TWF.
All that being said I'll stumble though a try:
Show
[sblock]Levels: Barbarian 1-2, Other???
Required Feats: Improves Shield Bash, TWF, TW Pounce, Oversized TWF, Shield Ward, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Improved Trip B, Shield Specialization (Heavy)
Weapons: 2 spiked Mithral Gauntlet Shields.
That's right, you're TWF with shields. Gauntlet Shields leave your hands free to hold and use everything but weapons. You charge and attempt to trip and daze your opponent since they are likely to have survived the damage of the initial charge. By maximizing your shield attacks you get more attempts to pull off debilitation on charges.
Side mention, while you receive two shield bonuses by RAW there's no way they can stack. In this specific case, I find that stupid and illogical but there you have it.[/sblock]
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
If you're going to use your shield as a weapon avoid MAD by doing a two level Ranger dip, and taking Gloves of the Balanced Hand. Other than possibly Furious Counterattack and Inspire Courage I can't think of many good sources for extra damage while using this as one of your weapons.
Possibly consider a Ranger 2/Bard 2/Crusader 16 option in that regard. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting allows halfway decent power attack returns as well, or just take the penalty and use the feat some better way, the bonus's garnered via Furious Counterstrike and Inspire Courage will more than offset the ugly -4 for a larger offhand weapon.
Originally posted by draco1119:
If the AC bonus from TW Defense is untyped, you could use that and get (best shield's AC) + 1.
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
Sadly, that's a Shield bonus which won't stack with your normal shield.
Originally posted by draco1119:
Damn! That was the "if not".
Originally posted by The_Fred:
It seems as though, if you're using the sheild to attack, you're better of just using the shield as it's probably going to be more effective (thanks, Bashing!) than your main hand, and gives you AC too. You can TWF, but why not just TWF with two shields (stupid as it is)?
If you just want it for defence... well, there might be some things you can do with a Tower Shield (using the cover etc) but that's a whole other story.
With, say, Shield Specialisation and Focused Shield you can get a +2 on top of the +2 from a Heavy Shield, plus any enhancement bonuses, which is not bad, but then you're just burning feats for AC. May as well be a kobold and take Improved Natural Armour; it's a pretty lame return.
Shielded Casting/Manifesting protects you from AoOs (combine with a Caster's Shield?) but at higher levels you don't really need that anyway (and it doesn't seem to be what you're going for).
Hmm. The only other thing I can think of is everyone's favourite Dwarf PrC, the Ironsoul Forgemaster. He can get energy resistance from his shield... though again, he could do that with a buckler, too.
Looks like shields can be pretty neat at low levels, but like many things start to lag at higher levels.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
These are the most recent handbooks:
mmx ---> www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=868...
and before that
bg ---> brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
... but yeah, there's hasn't been all that much else since; except here + now.
Originally posted by StevenO:
That handbook is actually somewhat useful.
I see part of the problem with S&B is that you only have the feats and other things to spend on one side of your character's ability.
Originally posted by Caker:
Sanctified one of Wee Jas can get you another +5 shield bonus, combine with uncanny trickster/legacy champion cheese to increase it to a total of +18. With the feat Inlindl School(DotU) you can convert half that to attack bonus with light weapons/fineseable weapons, meaning a +9 bonus. Not sure what you can do with this, but there you go.
Originally posted by Kingofswing:
classes: Barbarian 2 fighter 3 stone blesses gnome 3 deep warden 2 exotic master 3 whatever 7
this would be a good starting point I think
barbarian giving you +4 to str and con
+ 2 to con fron stone blessed
con to AC in place of dex
now feats
endurance : I know it sucks but needed for deep wwarden
dodge: again not the greatest but needed for the next feat
titan fighting: gives you AC bonus vs giants to anyone larger then you since you are stone blessed gnome that is a + 8 to AC for anyone large and up and to boot you now qualify for gnome giant killer and blade bravo if you want to go dex base but that would be dumb with this bubuilds
the one thing you will have to do is have a caster make you small. Or start out as a gnome and take the same build but take stone blessed dwarf
Originally posted by Caker:
And that pertains to this thread how?
Originally posted by Kingofswing:
He is looking for a dwarf build well there is one there
Originally posted by draco1119:
Really, dood?! Try reading THE THREAD TITLE sometime. M'kay, pumpkin?
Originally posted by aelryinth:
If your campaign is going to allow Improved Buckler Defense, you may as well skip any thoughts of a classic shield build.
Shield AC + Two handed weapon power? For one feat? Yeah, who gives a whoop about shield bashing. Spend a feat on that, Shield Spec and Shield Ward, and you're all good to go.
You could do the same with an animated shield, but that's a +2 Enhancement, which is going to delay the AC. You're better off with an ubercharger build with the three feats above tacked on for extra AC love.
==Aelryinth
Originally posted by Caker:
Dual wield heavy steel shields, or extreme shields. Use the above trick I posted and charge with shield charge, taking the AC from one of them and adding it to the attack of the other (There is an enchantment that let's you finesse any weapon IIRC), while still keeping the increased AC from the one you didn't take it from. Make sure you pounce, and make a bunch of trip/daze attempts. Feat intensive, but doable. I could work something up if anyone was interested in it.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I mentioned those exclusions in my first post simply because they are easy to do and don't take much away from any two-handed build you'd want to make.
IBD = spend feat at take -1 on your attack in exchange for the stuff that a shield can give. Don't care about a +1 or +2 shield bonus? Just wear the buckler and screw the feat yet still enjoy all the miscellaneous things a shiled can be enchanted with as (I believe) all IBD does is let you keep the AC bonus which you normally give up.
The Anmated Shield is simply an equipment choice.
That's not a Sword and Board concept however.
It's sad when it appears that a shield can be 'wielded' as a weapon while maintaining its use as a shield more easily than it is to use an actual weapon with a shield.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Was there a feat or PrC or something which let you cast somatic spells whilst holding a weapon? I'm thinking sword-and-board gish with Shielded Casting. EDIT: Ah, Somatic Weaponry [CM]! Or a Shield Gauntlet.
RE Improved Buckler Defence... well, it does cost the -1 to AB, and a feat. At higher levels especially, if you're Power Attacking then the +2 damage from PA is worth more than a -1, so for the benefit of a shield to be worth more than +2 PA damage (assuming you're taking a -2 or more with PA) it also has to be worth more than that -1 AB. At low levels, though, an AB hit is not really what you want (and you can easily get +6-8 for a -2 with Combat Expertise; taking -1 for +1-2 with a Buckler is less of a return).
It just seems as though a shield is not going to be great at high levels - though I think at low levels it could be very handy indeed.
Originally posted by StevenO:
I know the 'cost" of IBD. I could point out that if you are already "power attacking to the max" then I'm not sure the -1 penalty for using the buckler needs to be factored in. It may be a penalty but it's not like it lowers your BAB one bit. Sometime I think people forget that if you have multiple things that are limited by your BAB they are all individually limited; you can max out Power Attack and (Improved) Combat Expertise even if it takes your final attack "bonus" well into the negatives. I'll say I'm not seeing where you could "easily" get a +6 to +8 AC bonus by taking a -2 attack penalty with Combat Expertise; at least now with the investment of a single feat.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
The only other cheese (it's only semi-cheese anyway)
... is to use the Titan Bloodline 12 ability.
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodli...
And it hasn't really been hashed out.
I was using it for Psi Monk Tash Crazy Dip weirdness,
so I don't know what Sword And Board can do with it.
Still, really big shield in one hand, and sorta-really big
sword (or any weapon) in the other, might do something.
It's a long time to wait 12 levels, for a Key to a build.
Originally posted by The_Fred:
Well, might take more than a feat, but you can optimise Combat Expertise pretty easily and probably get a better return than with a buckler - depending on how much gold you're willing to sink, I guess (if you were using a Broadblade Shortsword, I think you can already get -2/+4 without needing any feats).
Now, maybe using a shield and Combat Expertise, perhaps with something like Active Shield Defence, could work out... you'd want to AoO tank, though, which would mean a kusari-gama (or maybe being Large) since you're holding a shield (unless, of course, you use a buckler).
Originally posted by vortsukoto:
If we're breaking the "No Gishes" rule, Runesmith (Races of Stone pg 118) I've found makes very decent use of shields. Their main ability is to replace somatic components with runes inscribed on objects that act as material components. When those runes are prepared on your shield and you posses Shielded Casting, it gives you a dwarf with a very strong tie to their shield who can one-hand an axe (or hammer) without worry.
Now, the problems with this build is that you have to pay the entry fee for the PrC of Heavy Armor proficiency and Scribe Scroll, it intimately ties you to your shield (beware of sunder monsters), and you're no real good in melee beyond what your casting provides. However for the low optimization games that I've been in, the build works fine with something as basic as Fighter 1/ Wizard 3/ Runesmith 3 and latter prestige classing into Eldritch Knight for BAB progression.
I know this is very basic as far as optimization goes but I feel this very strongly fits the style of the character requested even if not the substance asked for or level of optimization expected.
Originally posted by StevenO:
To be honest my "no gish" rule is directed far more at thosoe who believe a full spellcaster is always the way to go. I'm not looking for what could be called a "spellcaster" who can fight although a fighter who casts some spells maybe alright. I'm not quite sure what the distinction may be but if an S&B fighter needs to be able to cast 9th or even 8th level (maybe even 7th level) spells it is too much "caster" for my tastes. Heavy armor and arcane spellcasting also don't go together so well in most cases.
I'll admit I certainly consider a single caster dip and five levels of Abjurant Champion for what may otherwise be "fighting" builds although in the context of S&B one of the AbC's greater assets (quickened, extended, super powered Shield spell) isn't utilized.
Originally posted by draco1119:
I've got some ideas rattling around. I'll try to get a build posted in the next day or two.
Originally posted by StevenO:
It's looking like this is actually a "good" challenge because there aren't any runaway concepts getting thrownout. Maybe a S&B warrior is just so average to blaa that it really is impossible to "optimize" it because almost by definition the character is giving up some offense (two-handers) for added defense (AC+).
Maybe I should ask: What houserules could be used that wouldn't break a shield but would make it a more attractive option?
Would having the AC a non-Buckler shield provides increase with BAB be enough to make it useful at higher levels? Say for every +5 BAB a character has light, medium, and heavier Shields provide an additional +1 shield bonus to AC or to make it more interesting provide a +1 dodge bonus to AC thus having it work with touch attacks.
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
Giving you something to do with that hand that isn't a bash would go a long way, particularly if it's active rather than passive. Making use of swifts or immediates might also work. Giving light and heavy shields the ability to operate as a Wall of Blades style block would make shield use a lot more active, having Shield Ward on heavy shields by default would make them a lot more interesting against casters (although they'd probably be destroyed by the first few rays sent your way) or AoO tanks who focus on trips, and having them interact with Combat Expertise the way a two-hander works with Power Attack might open up some interesting options (albeit somewhat more passively unless you're also a kalashtar).
Originally posted by frost.fire:
I think an easy homebrew idea would be to create a martial discipline which rewards fighting with a s&b fighting style. This would maximize the swifts and immediates that Tempest refered to but also to encourage that style over top of a tradition 2hf or twf. Another would perhaps be a feat where you can reduce your sheild bonus for a bonus to special combat maneuvers (tripping/disarm/grapple?) One final homebrew thought would be a feat that you can use your sheild boni to add to things such as damage and hit.
Edit: also a feat that improves base reach with a sheild for some reason (more mechanical then anything but also handy)
Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
I wouldn't do a discipline - you don't want the fundamentals of a basic combat effect to be locked in the Sublime Way.
One other possibility: Introduce tactical scissors-paper-stone effects. There's already one such effect in the game, but it's a terrible never-used feat (Pin Shield: a TWFer can deny a target their shield using his off-hand weapon). Imagine a hypothetical where a similar effect could be used by shields against two-handers (say, exploiting the large openings a two-hander necessarily gives you, in effect giving you something akin to Sidestep Charge as you push away your attacker with your shield), and two-handers against TWFers (Not immediately sure how this would work, largely due to TWF being quirky and not being used in its historical parry/feint forms). The "one-hander and empty-hand" style and unarmed combat style would be the place for exotic martial arts abilities outside this cycle. This, incidentally, also favors people who use light shields who can quickly switch between the three different forms in addition to having a counter for two-handed weapons. It's a bigger sweeping change than the ones I suggested earlier, but it's a big-picture thought.
