Swords of the bastard kind

[kreynolds]

Correct me if I am wrong.

I think Caliban was saying that it is not a requirement that you pick up two feats to use a bastard sword either one-handed or two-handed. Neither feat require each other as a prereq. You just pick a style and pick your feat. So, the bastard sword doesn't actually require two feats. It will take advantage of two feats, but it doesn't require them.

 

[Caliban]

From the SRD



Stating a bastard used two handed is a martial weapon, I am of the understanding that most classes other than fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins require feats to use martial weapons?
Correct me if I am wrong.

Bob

You are almost correct, but a bastard sword is not a martial weapon, it's an exotic weapon.

A medium sized character can use one as a martial weapon, but they will have a -4 non-proficiency penalty if they don't have the martial proficiency.

If they use it as an exotic weapon (i.e. with one hands) and they have the EWP, they don't have a penalty.

If you have one feat or the other, you are proficient in the bastard sword. The martial proficiency allows proficient two-handed use, the EWP allows proficient one handed use. Having both proficiencies makes you more versatile, but it's not required.

 

[baradtgnome]

If it looks too good to be true...

If you only take the EWP, you only know how to wield it in one hand effectively. You have the -4 penalty when you try to wield it in two hands. Strange but true.

Hmmm. I never considered that. Sounds reasonable. I had always assumed that the EWP for the Bastard Sword allowed you to use it 1 or 2 handed. Only becomes an issue if your strong non-fighter wanted a bastard sword to use either way. (like mine). If you take a martial weapon proficency for the long sword say, you can use it 1 or 2 handed. Yes, yes, I hear the chorus of 'but it isn't a Bastard Sword' and the extra damage etc. And the DM part of me agrees.

Other than the fact that this line of reasoning makes sense, is there any other clarifying statement somewhere that specifically says you don't get both 1 and 2 handed proficiency with the EWP?

... not every weapon or feat is equally balanced ...

signed Wishfull Thinking...

 

[CCamfield]

I think that if someone has EWP: Bastard Sword but not proficiency in Martial Weapons, they should get two-handed use of the sword for free.

If you have proficiency in longsword, you can wield it two-handed for free, so far as I know. (To get the damage bonus for extra strength.)

 

[hammymchamham]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency [General]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1 or higher.
Benefit: The character makes attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon without being proficient with it suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: The character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time The character takes the feat, it applies to a new weapon. Proficiency with the bastard sword or the dwarven waraxe has a prerequisite of Str 13+.

Martial Weapon Proficiency [General]
Benefit: The character makes attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon without being proficient with it suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls.
The character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the character takes the feat, it applies to a new weapon.
A cleric whose deity’s favored weapon is a martial weapon and who chooses War as one of his domains receives the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat related to that weapon for free, as well as the Weapon Focus feat related to that weapon.

The bastard swords entry is:

Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A Medium-size character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature can use it one-handed in the same way.

Take a wizard who at 3rd+ level takes Exotic Weapon:Bastard Sword. A wizard does not have Martial Weapon Proficeny:Bastard Sword. If the wizard attempts to weild it two handed, he is using a weapon he is unproficient in:

If a character uses a weapon with which the character is not proficient, the character suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

So to the letter of the law, the wizard with EWP:BS weilding it 2 handed is not proficient. But if a player of mine did this, they wouldn't have a -4, becuase IMO, its not the spirit of the law.

All quotes taken from the SRD

 

[hammymchamham]

If you have proficiency in longsword, you can wield it two-handed for free, so far as I know. (To get the damage bonus for extra strength.)

Yes, but the long sword is not an exotic weapon, its only a martial weapon. If you weild it with one, two (or more!?) hands, its still a martial weapon. You either have Martial Weapon Proficiency:Long Sword, or you don't. Using my above example, if a wizard takes MWP:LS, they are proficient in it one handed or two handed. They take no penalties (or bonuses) to hit with one or two hands.

 

[dcollins]

(With weapon focus...) Because of the special rules for bastard swords, you'd be +1 to hit when using two hands and -3 to hit (-4 non-proficiency +1 focus) when using one hand.

A strict DM might rule that you don't get the +1 bonus for using it one handed unless you also have the EWP Bastard Sword, but once you do take the EWP feat, the Weapon Focus bonus would apply.

Since no one else has brought it up, perhaps I need to point out the following: The last Official FAQ update included a ruling that without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), a medium-sized character is entirely prohibited from using the weapon one-handed.

Personally, this surprised me, but when I pointed it out in another thread, almost no one else seemed to be.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Personally, this surprised me, but when I pointed it out in another thread, almost no one else seemed to be.

Yeah, that comes as total surprise to me. While it does solve our problem at hand, it rises a whole new set of questions.

 

[hammymchamham]

Since no one else has brought it up, perhaps I need to point out the following: The last Official FAQ update included a ruling that without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), a medium-sized character is entirely prohibited from using the weapon one-handed.

Personally, this surprised me, but when I pointed it out in another thread, almost no one else seemed to be.

I'm just curious, but was that the actual wording, that they are prohibited from using it one-handed? I'm sorry, but this does not sound like a 3rd edition thing. Its sounds like a relic from 2nd.

2nd:
Theif: Why can't I wear the full plate?
DM: You're a thief

3rd:
Theif: So I can wear the full plate even without Heavy weapon proficiency?
DM: Yes, but you suffer the armor check penalty to attacks.


Whats stoping a fighter (or anyone) from using the bastard sword one handed? Nothing! Sure they would have a -4 non proficiency penlty without the EWP, but they can use it. Or so how I read:

[qupte]If a character uses a weapon with which the character is not proficient, the character suffers a -4 penalty on attack rolls.[/quote] No where does it ever say a charecter who is inproficient in weapon A is prohibited from using weapon A.

Edit:
And I just read that FAQ entry and think it is a very very poor ruling and would never rule such in my game, but what ever

 

[dcollins]

The previous discussion thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33876

The exact quote from the Main FAQ, v.11222002, p. 18:

Does the penalty for not having a Martial Weapon
Proficiency feat stack with the penalty for not having an
Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat? For example, what
happens if a sorcerer uses a bastard sword in one hand and
does not have either the Martial Weapon Proficiency or the
Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for a bastard sword? Is her
penalty a straight –4 for not having the Exotic Weapon
Proficiency, or does she suffer a –4 for not having the
Martial Weapon Proficiency in addition to the –4 for not
having the Exotic Weapon Proficiency because a bastard
sword requires special training to use with one hand?

No, you don’t get two penalties for nonproficiency. You’re
either proficient with a weapon or you’re not.
If you’re Medium-size, you have to be proficient with a
bastard sword to use it in one hand; if you’re not proficient, you
don’t have the option to use the sword one-handed at all.
Assuming that the sorcerer in your example is Medium-size,
she would have to use the sword in two hands and would suffer
the –4 nonproficiency penalty when doing so.