Swordsage: The Complex Fighter

[Ashkelon]

So there is a lot of talk about "simple" fighters and how boring they are or aren't, and how they measure up to spellcasters in terms of versatility, variety, and usefullness especially at higher levels. While I personally feel that the fighter is at a good place in terms of pure numerical balance in combat, I find it to be one of the most lackluster classes in 5e. It has no "wow" factor. It is Combat Numbers the class.

I want a martial warrior that is more interesting than a beat stick. I want to make tactically interesting choices on a round by round basis. I want resource management, versatility, and utility both in and out of combat. I accept that a martial character will never be as "significant" as a spellcaster in terms of utility, both on and off the battlefield, but I want more than what 5e has given us.

To that end, I created the 5e Swordsage. It draws heavily from the 3e Tome of Battle martial adepts, but utilizes the streamlined structure of 4e martial exploits to achieve a variety of interesting capabilities in combat. The class is not as tough as the fighter, nor as lethal in combat, but it has much more versatility. Tell me what you think!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zHLtUBIOpuzbhov9Jk6GsCgftm1TIb2_Q8oHBWo26Jk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[TwoSix]

So there is a lot of talk about "simple" fighters and how boring they are or aren't, and how they measure up to spellcasters in terms of versatility, variety, and usefullness especially at higher levels. While I personally feel that the fighter is at a good place in terms of pure numerical balance in combat, I find it to be one of the most lackluster classes in 5e. It has no "wow" factor. It is Combat Numbers the class.

I want a martial warrior that is more interesting than a beat stick. I want to make tactically interesting choices on a round by round basis. I want resource management, versatility, and utility both in and out of combat. I accept that a martial character will never be as "significant" as a spellcaster in terms of utility, both on and off the battlefield, but I want more than what 5e has given us.

To that end, I created the 5e Swordsage. It draws heavily from the 3e Tome of Battle martial adepts, but utilizes the streamlined structure of 4e martial exploits to achieve a variety of interesting capabilities in combat. The class is not as tough as the fighter, nor as lethal in combat, but it has much more versatility. Tell me what you think!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zHLtUBIOpuzbhov9Jk6GsCgftm1TIb2_Q8oHBWo26Jk/edit?usp=sharing

There's a lot to take in there, but on a first glance, I really like it.

 

[Boarstorm]

Looks like some promising lunch-break reading.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[trentonjoe]

At first glance, it's looks more powerful than a fighter.

All you are giving up is Heavy Armor and the two extra attacks right?

I would drop the Ability Increase down to the 4-8-12 model.

The Stone Power (DR Con Modifier) is a bit much at 2nd level. That's really like an 6th-8th level ability. It's pretty close to the HEavy Armor Mastery Feat.

I haven't read through all of it but I am fairly certain that a swordsage is going to be way better than an equivalent level fighter. They have a million more options and advantage on an awful lot of saves....

 

[Ashkelon]

At first glance, it's looks more powerful than a fighter.

All you are giving up is Heavy Armor and the two extra attacks right?

You are giving up a lot of survivability. No second wind, no heavy armor, no defensive combat style, etc. Unlike paladins and rangers, the class has no access to magical healing. Unlike the barbarian, it cannot gain resistance to damage all the time. Some maneuvers and stances help out in the durability department, but overall the class is much squishier than the other front line melee warriors.

On top of that, the fighter does more damage at every level. I made sure of this. I ran an exhaustive comparison between the swordsage, the fighter, and the barbarian to ensure that the fighter or barbarian is always coming out on top in terms of damage. I tested with and without Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master feats. For that trade off in DPR, the swordsage gains more versatility in its actions.

I would drop the Ability Increase down to the 4-8-12 model.

This is a change I might consider.

The Stone Power (DR Con Modifier) is a bit much at 2nd level. That's really like an 6th-8th level ability. It's pretty close to the HEavy Armor Mastery Feat.

It is close to half of the heavy armor mastery feat. Don't forget that HAM does grant +1 to Strength as well. Humans can get HAM at level 1, and everyone else can get it at 4. The ability is certainly potent, but I wouldn't call it overpowering when there are CR 1/2 monsters that are able to deal 1d8+2d6+2 damage.

I haven't read through all of it but I am fairly certain that a swordsage is going to be way better than an equivalent level fighter. They have a million more options and advantage on an awful lot of saves....

Yes, they do have more options than the champion. Then again, the battlemaster also has many more options than a champion fighter too. Would you say the battlemaster is more powerful than the champion across the board just because of options?

What about the paladin? The paladin gets a bonus to saving throws equal to his Cha mod all the time (compared to needing to spend your combat focus and a reaction). The paladin also has a variety of smite spells that cause powerful effects that the fighter (and swordsage) can never even hope to replicate. Would you say the paladin is more powerful than the fighter across the board?

What about the any full spellcaster? They have about 10x as many options as the swordsage? Does that automatically make them more powerful as well? I think volume of options alone doesn't make a class powerful. At some level, the potency of each of those options needs to be weighed. I tried to make the individual maneuvers interesting without making them too powerful. If there are any maneuvers that do seem out of line, I would love to know so I can fix them.

The maneuvers definitely seem potent when you look at all the possibilities, but remember the limits on using them. First, you only know 12 of them, including stances. That is fewer maneuvers known than the eldritch knight knows spells. Next, using a counter utilizes your reaction, meaning you cannot make an opportunity attack if you use one, and you are limited to only one per round. Also, using a maneuver requires you to spend your combat focus. If you had initiated a strike and missed, you will not have your combat focus available to spend to initiate a counter. If you have your combat focus and spend it to initiate a counter, you won't be able to initiate a strike on your next turn. It becomes a tactically interesting choice to initiate a counter and use a basic attack next turn, or hold off on initiating a counter so you can perform a strike on your next turn.

Also remember that swordsage maneuvers are not at-will. Since you only gain your combat focus when you hit an enemy, they are much closer to a 65% usage rate. Except for one of the subclasses, you do not start a battle with your combat focus. This means your first round of every combat, you will not be able to use any maneuvers at all. And without maneuvers, you are little more than a fighter that deals less damage and has less durability.

 

[trentonjoe]

Couple more thoughts:

Single Blade
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and nothing in your off hand, you gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls.

This would make the character the best melee character to hit in the game. I figure you are basing it off the Archery +2 thing the fighters get but I think that is a mistake. Being +2 to hit is a big deal.


"Battle Cunning
By 6th level, your instinct for seizing the moment gives you a significant advantage over your foes. When you take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge, action on your turn, you can make a single weapon attack as a bonus action."

Dodge and Disengage are designed to not have attacks. I would just limit it to the Dash option. That way it is closer to 1/2 the Charger feat.

If you can Disengage and attack it's pretty close to the mobility feat and Dodge + Attack is like having blur up all the time!

This ability is pretty close to 2 feats and a 2nd level spell!

EDIT: I just realized these are two monk Ki abilities all rolled into 1.

Avalanche of Blades
In a flashing blur of steel, you unleash a devastating volley of deadly attacks against your enemy, striking it again and again.
Type: Legendary Strike
Prerequisite: 9th level, three other Diamond Mind maneuvers
Effect: Make a melee attack. If the attack hits you may make another melee attack against the same target. You continue making attacks against your target until you miss or you have made a total of five attacks.


Um, 5 attacks at 9th level? It should cap at 3. OR just give it an automatic 3rd attack.


Time Stands Still
The raindrops themselves stand still as you act at the speed of thought. You move like a blur, catching your enemies by surprise with a complex action carried out in a tiny fraction of the time normally needed to complete it.
Type: Legendary Strike
Prerequisite: 9th level, three other Diamond Mind Maneuvers
Effect: Move a distance up to your speed and make a three separate melee attacks at any point(s) during this movement. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.

I really don't like the disengage for free mechanic.

"Adamantine Hurricane
You channel ki through your blade and unleash a powerful blast of energy that cuts a path of destruction across the battlefield.
Type: Legendary Strike
Prerequisite: 9th level, three other Iron Heart maneuvers
Effect: A line of powerful cutting winds 100 feet long and 5 feet wide blasts out from you in a direction you choose. Each creature in the line must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes damage equal to double your normal weapon damage on a failed save, and half that much on a successful one."


This is a autohit on everyone in a line. The 100 feet is quirky, 30 is more in line with other non lightning bolt powers. It's like a straight line whirlwind I guess.

Iron Heart Endurance
You push aside the pain of your injuries to fight on past mortal limits.
Type: Counter
Trigger: You are reduced to 0 hit points and are not killed outright.
Effect: You are reduced to 1 hit point instead.
Special: Once you initiate this maneuver, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

I think this is the 1/2 orc ability and they can only do it after a long rest. I think..

"Iron Heart Surge
By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.
Type: Boost
Effect: Choose one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you that has a duration of 1 or more rounds. The effect immediately ends.
Special: You may initiate this maneuver even if you are otherwise unable to act. Once you initiate this maneuver, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Isn't that freedom of movement? Except it is better.



I don't know. It's hard to tell how this balances. It seems to me you just picked cool powers from races, classes and spells and just one to have access to all of them. I don't think that is a real good idea.

This guy is a fighter with access to all the cool thief abilities, constant disadvantage to hit and cool abilities that mimic good spells.

 

[trentonjoe]

The above is a little more negative that I intended.

In all, I think the class is just to much. I think it is what you want, a fighter with options, but I don't think you can call it balanced with other classes.

 

[Pentegarn]

There is a floor, Monty.

Another One Class to rule them all.

 

[Juriel]

Love the idea, need to look through this in more detail.

 

[Ashkelon]

Couple more thoughts:

Single Blade
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and nothing in your off hand, you gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls.

This would make the character the best melee character to hit in the game. I figure you are basing it off the Archery +2 thing the fighters get but I think that is a mistake. Being +2 to hit is a big deal.

I completely agree that having +2 to hit is a big deal. That is why this ability is so limited. You are forced to use a d8 damage weapon (or less), in one hand with nothing in your off hand, not even a shield. This option deals the least damage of all the styles.

"Battle Cunning
By 6th level, your instinct for seizing the moment gives you a significant advantage over your foes. When you take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge, action on your turn, you can make a single weapon attack as a bonus action."

Dodge and Disengage are designed to not have attacks. I would just limit it to the Dash option. That way it is closer to 1/2 the Charger feat.

If you can Disengage and attack it's pretty close to the mobility feat and Dodge + Attack is like having blur up all the time!

This ability is pretty close to 2 feats and a 2nd level spell!

EDIT: I just realized these are two monk Ki abilities all rolled into 1.

Interesting...I considered this a filler ability. Afterall, to use it you must reduce your damage by 1/2. You cannot use a strike the same turn you use this ability either. It is like the reverse of the monk, rogue, and barbarian abilities that do something similar as all of those still allow you to attack at full strength. There is a big difference between using your action to attack and being able to do something else as a bonus action and using your action to do something and a bonus action to make a single attack.

Avalanche of Blades
In a flashing blur of steel, you unleash a devastating volley of deadly attacks against your enemy, striking it again and again.
Type: Legendary Strike
Prerequisite: 9th level, three other Diamond Mind maneuvers
Effect: Make a melee attack. If the attack hits you may make another melee attack against the same target. You continue making attacks against your target until you miss or you have made a total of five attacks.

Um, 5 attacks at 9th level? It should cap at 3. OR just give it an automatic 3rd attack.

I think I will reduce the maximum number of attacks to 4.

Time Stands Still
The raindrops themselves stand still as you act at the speed of thought. You move like a blur, catching your enemies by surprise with a complex action carried out in a tiny fraction of the time normally needed to complete it.
Type: Legendary Strike
Prerequisite: 9th level, three other Diamond Mind Maneuvers
Effect: Move a distance up to your speed and make a three separate melee attacks at any point(s) during this movement. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.

I really don't like the disengage for free mechanic.

As a legendary strike, this is supposed to be wowing.

"Adamantine Hurricane
You channel ki through your blade and unleash a powerful blast of energy that cuts a path of destruction across the battlefield.
Type: Legendary Strike
Prerequisite: 9th level, three other Iron Heart maneuvers
Effect: A line of powerful cutting winds 100 feet long and 5 feet wide blasts out from you in a direction you choose. Each creature in the line must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes damage equal to double your normal weapon damage on a failed save, and half that much on a successful one."

This is a autohit on everyone in a line. The 100 feet is quirky, 30 is more in line with other non lightning bolt powers. It's like a straight line whirlwind I guess.

This is one of the few obviously supernatural maneuvers available to the Swordsage. Of course the wizard has been shooting off lightning bolts for levels by the time the Swordsage gets access to this. I don't even think I have ever seen a wizard choose lightning because it is such a crappy spell compared to fireball.

Iron Heart Endurance
You push aside the pain of your injuries to fight on past mortal limits.
Type: Counter
Trigger: You are reduced to 0 hit points and are not killed outright.
Effect: You are reduced to 1 hit point instead.
Special: Once you initiate this maneuver, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

I think this is the 1/2 orc ability and they can only do it after a long rest. I think..

I thought it was per short rest. I'll double check when I get a chance as update this if needed. Remember, the half Orc ability does not require your reaction or for you to spend your combat focus.

"Iron Heart Surge
By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.
Type: Boost
Effect: Choose one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you that has a duration of 1 or more rounds. The effect immediately ends.
Special: You may initiate this maneuver even if you are otherwise unable to act. Once you initiate this maneuver, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Isn't that freedom of movement? Except it is better.

Freedom of movement protects you for a long duration. Freedom of movement can protect you from multiple effects over the course of a single battle. This ability is definitely powerful, but IMHO it is needed in a world where Save or Suck spells exist. Hold person with DC 17 is almost unbreakable for most warriors. Dragons have fear with a DC of 19+. Polymorph, dominate, reverse gravity, contagion, wall of force, etc are all game over spells for martial warriors. This ability at least gives you a second chance.

I don't know. It's hard to tell how this balances. It seems to me you just picked cool powers from races, classes and spells and just one to have access to all of them. I don't think that is a real good idea.

This guy is a fighter with access to all the cool thief abilities, constant disadvantage to hit and cool abilities that mimic good spells.

I think you are falling into the schrodinger's wizard problem. The Swordsage cannot be good at everything all the time. He can be defensive, but only when he gives up offense. He can be mobile, but only when he gives up defense. He can use a strike maneuver now, or save his focus for an off-turn counter.

If the Swordsage maneuvers were all at-will and usable all the time I might agree with you more, but in actual playtesting I have done, using a boost or a counter is a significant trade off. If you are worried about needing to save your focus to get a reroll on a saving throw, then you are far more hesitant to initiate a strike.

You do bring up some great points though. The Swordsage is hugely more versatile than the fighter. That is partly because the fighter has no versatility at all though. What is versatility worth? The Swordsage is strictly inferior in terms of damage and survivability. Is that enough of a trade off? I can post numbers if you want to see just how far behind the Swordsage is.