[SWSE] Are Jedi just plain better than everyone else?

[Asmor]

Balanced doesn't mean comparable effectiveness in combat.

With all due respect, I think that's exactly what balanced means. For better or worse, D&D is a combat-centric game, and every core class is intended to be equally, if differently, effective in combat. Other skills are generally judged only in their applications to combat. Really, the only exception are the social skills, which basically turn social situations and turn them into combat (i.e. your roll vs. my roll)... and even then, the social skills have combat applications too.

I'm not saying that D&D should be all combat all the time, but to say that the rules assume a balance based on anything except combat is misguided.

 

[pawsplay]

Wow, really?

If you have some evidence that d20 is not preponderantly balanced around combat, I would love to see it.

Spells such as create water and zone of truth obviously exist for some other reason.

 

[Asmor]

Spells such as create water and zone of truth obviously exist for some other reason.

Noone's suggested that D&D is 100% combat. All Wulf and myself have said is that D&D is balanced around combat. The existence of spells which aren't meant to be used in combat is an absolute non-sequiter

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

For a straight 'caster,' I would go with a noble, because a noble would probably get the most synergy from the 'casting stats' of Charisma and Wisdom.

As an aside, that's exactly what one of my players has built for our upcoming Saga game. I gave them a nice 30-pt buy and he dumped almost everything into Wis and Cha. He took Skill Focus (UtF) and Force Training and already has some pretty ridiculous powers. I don't think he plans on taking any Noble talents, which I find cool but amusing for some reason.

Personally, I don't get this "Jedi are ubermensch." Of course they look like badasses when they're fighting all nonheroics. And I think Mace vs. Jango is a totally unfair comparison... he had like four levels on the poor guy. Obi-Wan vs. Jango, that's a lot more reasonable. Kenobi barely got out of their alive, and the he had the audacity to track the bastard and practically got himself killed again! Silly Jedi.

Jedi are the primary melee class in Saga... as it should be. But if you want talk about pure damage I think you'll find a triple-attacking, burst-firing elite-trooper more than holds his own. Or hey, if you want to get into condition stacking, grab all the bonus condition penalty talents you can, then jump into bounty hunter. You'll one-shot BBEGs before the Jedi ignites his silly little sword.

 

[billd91]

See also: Jango getting punked by Mace Windu in Ep 2.

I think that's even more telling. Jango could barely even put up a fight. When I saw that, it proved to me how uber the Jedi were. A non-Jedi going one-on-one against a Jedi, even one younger or less experienced, was virtually suicide. Sure there are exceptions but I hold firm that generally that's the case.

Of course, Jango also had been run over by a rhinoceros on steroids. So it's not like he was in top form.

 

[gribble]

Of course, Jango also had been run over by a rhinoceros on steroids. So it's not like he was in top form.

Not to mention that Mace was something like 19th level, and Jango was more like 15th. In d20, most characters 4 levels higher than you are going to hand you your @$$.

 

[gribble]

It's not free; it costs a talent.
Moreover, it's not really automatic, since it's not difficult to fail the check. Especially at higher levels, when defense bonuses exceed skill bonuses.

Exactly. All block/deflect really does is increase your chances of being missed. Given that a soldier is probably going to have a reflex defense at least a couple of points higher than a Jedi (as they can wear armor), and when they do hit they'll be doing more damage (vibroaxe averages a couple of points more than a lightsaber - by the time you add earlier access to weapon spec & melee smash, plus a likely higher Str you're probably looking at least 4-5 points more on average per hit) it probably all evens out.
My play experience with Saga has ceratinly backed this up - Jedi don't feel any more powerful than the other classes in play.

 

[Particle_Man]

As an aside, that's exactly what one of my players has built for our upcoming Saga game. I gave them a nice 30-pt buy and he dumped almost everything into Wis and Cha. He took Skill Focus (UtF) and Force Training and already has some pretty ridiculous powers. I don't think he plans on taking any Noble talents, which I find cool but amusing for some reason.

If he goes that route, I recommend he aim for Crime Lord. This prestige class gets one talent *every level*, which could be used for Force Talents if you have Force Sensitivity.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Spells such as create water and zone of truth obviously exist for some other reason.

Those are for interrogating the prisoner after handing him his ass in combat.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

If he goes that route, I recommend he aim for Crime Lord. This prestige class gets one talent *every level*, which could be used for Force Talents if you have Force Sensitivity.

Not true: you can only select those bonus talents from the Infamy, Influence, or Mastermind talent trees.