[SWSE] Are Jedi just plain better than everyone else?

[gribble]

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like most people here are underestimating the block/deflect abilities' effectiveness at low levels. At level 3 we're talking an opposed roll where the Jedi is getting +6 over the opponent using these numbers: (1/2 character level +1, trained UTF +5, skill focus UTF +5, Cha. bonus +3) vs. another class with (BAB +3, Str./Dex. +3, additional modifiers +2). That 6 point gulf if not insignificant, as it means even with a comparatively low reflex save (around 17) many attacks should be deflected.

I think the key things you're missing are:

• As someone else has already pointed out, a soldier will almost always have a higher defense score than a Jedi (due to Armor talents), and this applies against every attack, not just the first 2-3 per round.
• A Jedi's deflect (UTF) bonus shouldn't be compared to the attack bonus of other characters, but rather to his own defense score. As a deflect is only really useful against attacks that hit, it's pretty much irrelevant what the opponents attack bonus is, as the minimum roll a Jedi will need to usefully deflect an attack is his own defence score, regardless of how high the opponents attack roll is. I.e.: the difficulty will almost never be 10 + opponents attack score, but instead the Jedi's own defence score (or higher, if the attack roll is higher). Roughly it tends to work out at about 75%, 50%, 25% chance of deflecting the 1st, 2nd, 3rd attacks each round. Good, but really no better than the soldiers chance of negating the same hit simply by virtue of having a higher defense bonus.

I'm sure I could do some math to prove it out statistically, but it's late, and I'm tired, and if the above doesn't convince you then I'm pretty sure statistics won't either.
From play experience it's a case of "reads bad, plays good".

One final piece of anecdotal evidence - over on the WotC forums, there is about an equal count of "OMG, the Jedi is sooo powerful why would you play anything else?" and "OMG, the Jedi has been sooo nerfed, why would you ever play one?" threads, which tells me the truth is somewhere in the middle - i.e.: well balanced with the other classes.

 

[gribble]

I highly doubt that Boba Fett was 15th level.

He is statted as 15th level in the Saga rulebook. One of the devs has said that Jango was the same power level (i.e.: also around 15th), in the unpublished version he statted up.

 

[wingsandsword]

See also: Jango getting punked by Mace Windu in Ep 2.

I think that's even more telling. Jango could barely even put up a fight. When I saw that, it proved to me how uber the Jedi were. A non-Jedi going one-on-one against a Jedi, even one younger or less experienced, was virtually suicide. Sure there are exceptions but I hold firm that generally that's the case.

You try having an 18th level Jedi/Jedi Knight/Jedi Master specifically optimized as a lightsaber combat master charging you and getting into melee against your ~15th level ranged-combat optimized Scoundrel/Bounty Hunter (who has already been trampled by beasts and had much of his gear damaged) and see how he fares.

The Fett's are the best example of the weaknesses of Jedi actually (Jango took down a number of Jedi at Geonosis before Mace Windu, the 2nd highest level Jedi of all, took him on one-on-one). Non-blaster ranged weapons (like Jango's flamethower), grappling devices, ways to engage them at distance without letting deflect abilities or their lightsaber damage come into play.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I know some people who would say the opposite. That Jedi are actually weaker than the other classes...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=890558

 

[ruleslawyer]

He is statted as 15th level in the Saga rulebook. One of the devs has said that Jango was the same power level (i.e.: also around 15th), in the unpublished version he statted up.

My bad; I didn't notice that until I reread the book! Of course, that just makes it more interesting that Han and Lando managed to take him down...

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

My bad; I didn't notice that until I reread the book! Of course, that just makes it more interesting that Han managed to take him down...

There's a lot to be said for dumb luck

And Lando wasn't involved in that part of the fight at all.

Rodney did a write-up of the Pit of Carkoon fight under Saga Edition rules, which was Preview #7. Shows just how bad-ass a Jedi can be when in their element. Of course, it had Han, Chewie and Lando bumbling around like the Three Stooges... but that's more Lucas' fault than Rodney's.

 

[Klaus]

My bad; I didn't notice that until I reread the book! Of course, that just makes it more interesting that Han and Lando managed to take him down...

According to the Preview #7 over at WotC's, Han spent a Destiny point to inflict an automatic critical hit that was enough to kill Boba Fett. The GM was just feeling silly and went overboard with the death description.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

And then Boba Fett spent a Force point to instead drop to 0hp and five steps down the Condition Track.

The Sarlac couldn't penetrate his Fortitude Defense with it's Digestive Enzyme attack of +0 over the course of the next ten rounds and Boba rolled a 15 on his Constitution check, moving up the Condition Track one step and gaining 15hp.

On the next round he blasted his way out of the Sarlaac and into the EU.

I think.

--fje

 

[Keoki]

I've always been a fan of mixing the pre-"Stormtroopers are Clones" development from the EU with what we learned in AotC.

So, in the Clone Wars, you have extremely competant Clone Troopers who are very, very well trained. They are programmed with short life spans, ageing quickly, and so die, if not in combat, not long after the war is over. Cloning is outlawed after the war, though its doubtful that Palpatine would obey that law knowing him.

So, the Stormtroopers after would not be completely clones. If they are, they aren't of the original batch, and definitely aren't as effective. But at the same time, you get just general recruits into the Stormtroopers, which are actually a separate branch of the Imperial Military from the Army.

So the mix of recruits who aren't exactly the best trained soldiers in the galaxy plus aged and/or lesser-quality clones compared with the effective clones of the Clone Wars could explain why the troopers have little trouble gunning down Jedi while the Stormtroopers during the Galactic Civil War have trouble hitting well...anything.

Except that Lucas himself says the stormtroopers are cloned from Jango Fett. The disparity might be due to the fact that a lot of the clone troopers (specifically, the ARC troopers) were trained by Jango himself. Or, perhaps, after the Clone Wars ended, less time was spent on stormtrooper training.

Here's a conundrum: how come the stormtroopers don't have the same accent as the clone troopers? I half expected the Original Trilogy DVDs to dub in Temuera Morrison (sp?) for all the stormies, just like he did for Boba Fett.

 

[Klaus]

If the Extended Universe is accepted, Wookieepedia has this to say on Stormtroopers:

the first stormtroopers were clone troopers that survived the Clone Wars. Renamed by Palpatine's Declaration of a New Order, these clones of Jango Fett were immediately supplemented by three new stormtrooper clone batches grown in the Outer Rim Territories. Lacking the guidance of the Jedi Generals, stormtroopers were "cut loose" to brutally enforce the new Imperial doctrine, quickly building a reputation as merciless, destructive, and endless in number.

By the time the Galactic Civil War began in earnest, Fett's progeny were heavily supplemented with clones from new DNA sources and troopers recruited in the traditional manner; non-clone stormtrooper recruits had first been introduced in 9 BBY. Despite this influx of new trooper sources, the ranks remained exclusively Human: an obvious sign of the New Order's High Human Culture.

With the the ranks of the Stormtrooper Corps being gradually filled by birth-born recruits of human and non-human species alike, it is most likely that the once heavy reliance on clones diminished over time. Other reasons for the decline in the use of cloned soldiers may include the loss of Kamino and other various worlds where the Empire held countless cloning facilities. Due to the facts that the best and most effective clones grown through Kaminoan technology took approximately one decade to reach fighting age and the clones grown through Spaarti technology were about as effective as mindless battle droids, the Empire was left with little to no choice but to now rely on the patriotism and training of recruits rather than the programmed loyalty and unparalleled fighting ability of clones. Though the Imperial Military was still regarded as the best professional fighting force in the galaxy since the Grand Army of the Republic, the new stormtroopers would never truly compare to the fighting status of the pre-Endor stormtroopers, much less those of the Jango Fett batches.
Stormtroopers during the Sith attack on the Jedi Praxeum on Ossus in 130 ABY.
Stormtroopers during the Sith attack on the Jedi Praxeum on Ossus in 130 ABY.

As of 130 ABY, stormtroopers were serving in Emperor Roan Fel's new Galactic Empire, though by this time, the Stormtrooper Corps had become a mixed-species organization—due in part to the inclusion of non-Humans into the ranks of the 501st Legion, itself still in operation at this time. By this time, even females were allowed to serve as stormtroopers. The Imperial stormtroopers returned to prominence when they fought against the Galactic Alliance forces in the Sith-Imperial War, and aided in the Massacre of Ossus.

Ironically, the re-conquest of the galaxy by the new Galactic Empire, thanks in part to the fighting prowess of the dedicated and loyal stormtroopers, was a short-lived return to glory. Seven years after Darth Krayt usurped the Imperial throne, Emperor Roan Fel re-surfaced and captured Bastion itself, relying solely on Imperial loyalists, such as the 501st Legion and the 908th Stormtrooper Division. As of 137 ABY, the galaxy was once again engulfed in turmoil as various stormtrooper units took sides between the usurper Darth Krayt and the true Emperor Roan Fel.