System matters and free kriegsspiel

Numidius

Adventurer
Again, unless the goal of play is to announce actions then the goals of play can only be met by the GM.

if you disagree then show me. I’ll GM, you play and your goal is to stab the guard in the throat. Give it a shot. We both know you’ll fail, because the only one with permission to say if that happens is me.

But go ahead. Show me.
I argue I could do the same in apocalypse / dungeon world if I really wanted, and not let you trigger any move, just describing in the fiction how they could'nt apply.
Would I go against principles? Probably Yes, but same would you.

The 16hp dragon notorious [edit: I meant well known and insightful, NOT notorious] example of play is all about Gm deciding outcomes of Pc actions until a satisfactory fictional position is reached to deal damage onto the dragon, with or without triggering any move in the meanwhile, or even a hack&slash/volley move in the end.

Anyway if we're playing an hong kong movie inspired game and the guard is Jacky Chan, your unkillable guard would be spot on; same in a gritty espionage story in which the guard is Jason Bourne.
No one would complain they can't just stab him in the throat.
 
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pemerton

Legend
There's two problems with that. First, in the thread -- and in RPG discussions -- it's been repeatedly shown and agreed to that the DM can arbitrarily change the rules on a whim. Second, the DM can, and is expected to, adjust the difficulty of actions while staying within the framework of the rules. D&D and DCs, for example. The DM sets the DCs. The DM declares whether an action is an automatic success, what the DC is, or if it's an automatic failure
What you describe here is not true even of all versions of D&D. A GM in 4e D&D has no general power to declare genre-credible actions automatic failures. A GM in Moldvay Basic has no power to declare an attempt to open an ordinary door an automatic failure.

And it's certainly not true of every RPG!
 

pemerton

Legend
The players of a RPG can change the rules on a whim just as the GM can.

The GM insists that the goblins are still alive and murdering the PCs because their hp haven't yet been reduced to zero. But the players just ignore this, and merrily carry on talking about the adventures their PCs have now that the goblins have been killed!

Does the GM have to participate in these players' shared fiction? I dunno. But if the GM decides, arbitrarily, that the PCs' fireballs can't burn the goblins, do the players have to participate in the GM's fiction? I dunno in general. I know that I wouldn't. The last time I had a GM anything like that, ie one who completely ignored the rules and fiction of the game, I and the fellow players set up our own, better, game.
 

pemerton

Legend
the DM is free to ignore the rules on a whim and/or adjust the DCs as they see fit, they amount to the same thing. The DM decides.

<snip>

the DM can decide mid-cast that any number of things happen. Counterspell, wild magic surge, etc. Or simply decide that this one fireball is different somehow. Or that the circumstances right now (that the PCs and/or players are completely unaware of) changes how things work.

<snip>

In traditional games the DM is in complete control of literally everything

<snip>

The only agency traditional games give the players is their character creation options and choice of actions...which are also constrained by DM fiat.
What you describe here does not describe any RPG I've ever GMed. And as I posted just upthread, when I played a game whose GM seemed to agree with you I and my fellow players started a new, better game.

The other option, of course, is a free-for-all: the players decide that there is a wild magic surge that protects their PCs; that they are immune to fire even thought that is not written anywhere on their PC sheet; or some other exceptional circumstance applies.

I should add that the games I've GMed which the above does not describe and which I would have thought might count as "trad" include Moldvay/Cook/Marsh B/X, AD&D (both eds, but much more 1st ed), Classic Traveller, RuneQuest and Rolemaster. And the time period I'm talking about is 1982 through to the present day.
 

S'mon

Legend
That's the loop that supposedly results in zero agency. It supposedly results in zero agency, because the player can describe what they want their characters to do, but have no authority to determine how the world reacts.

Conflating agency with authority seems like a really bad mistake to me. A 'free agent' may have zero authority. It's like conflating autonomy with power.
 

pemerton

Legend
To zoom back out a bit, here is the listed gameplay loop of 5e, and I think would apply to many other "trad" games as well

1. The DM describes the environment.
2. The players describe what they want their characters to do.
3. The DM narrates the results of their actions.

Upthread it was posited that this loop allows for "zero agency," which is a surprising for me claim because it would imply that 5e or really any trad game would similarly have zero agency
Can you identify one of these 'trad games" you're talking about.

The above is not the play loop for Classic Traveller, nor Rolemaster, nor RQ, all of which might count as "trad" games.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
Thinking about the play loop:

Gm, players, or random tables introduce a situation. If no one does, Gm is obliged to do it.
Discussion on details until satisfaction, Gm is obliged to have final say, by fiat or any resolution, if consensus is not perfectly reached.

Players announce a general course of actions. If they don't, Gm is obliged to move the story/events/adventure forward to affect them directly.

Players declare what their PCs/factions/assets do. Gm describe how opposition reacts. Back and forth discussion on further actions and details until satisfaction.

Resolution by table agreement on the above discussion, or on results of dice rolls imposed by Gm, who is obliged to have a final say if bla bla...
 

Numidius

Adventurer
And in FKR games it’s: GM decides based on known/shared genre conventions. Tonight we’re playing FKR Star Wars, let’s go, for example. But apparently that somehow means “no agency” to some posters here.
Yes. I think it's a matter of... opportunity? Practicality?
I really want to play some Vampire the masquerade again. But I'm never going to touch that ruleset again. Still, to my group vampire means manipulating bunch of D10s.

I could run it tonight going FKR, freeform, diegetic, fiction only and when disagreement arises, as always does, roll a D10 dicepool using Blades resolution and see if it works.

Simple as that
 

pemerton

Legend
What's in question is how many of those reference points you can remove and still have a functional and enjoyable game.
Say something to prompt someone else to say something might be a perfectly functional, enjoyable game. But it won't be the same game as any of the RPGs I enjoy.

First I don't experience the type of games I sometimes play--OSR dnd type games--as being a "story told by someone else" or that I tell to someone else. Someone else might look at the gameplay loop of a dungeon crawl (for example) and find it lacking in player agency because the player can only announce their actions. To me, that's an over simplification to say the least; I suppose I can see how one formally arrives at that position, but in practice is not how I experience those sorts of games.
When you play a dungeon crawl, is the GM allowed to change the dungeon map at will? If you have entered a room via an open archway, and then declare that you leave the room the same way, is the GM free to tell you that you don't leave? That you suffer a leg cramp and fall to your knees?

The dungeon crawl games I'm familiar with (Moldvay Basic and AD&D, which many OSR games are based one) do not follow you posted play loop. They go something closer to this:

1. The DM describes the environment.
2. The players describe what they want their characters to do.
3. The DM refers to the map and key.
4. The DM extrapolates from the map and key where the PC goes (if moving) and/or what bits of architecture, furniture or similar that the PC discovers and/or touches. If the DM is not clear about what the PC is doing relative to the geography and architecture, the DM might seek clarificatoin from the player.
5. The DM calls for an appropriate roll if a relevant subsystem is triggered (eg opening a door; climbing a wall), or makes an appropriate roll if a relevant subsystem is triggered (eg searching for a trap or secret door, or listening at a door), or extrapolates the immediate result as faithfully and neutrally as they can if the action is moving things, lifting things, poking things, etc.​

I think that's still probably incomplete, but is closer to what Gygax and Moldvay describe in their rulebooks.

there are games that more or less put the establishment of the fiction in the hands of the dm, and the players play particular characters, usually just one at a time, in that fiction. I think it's an exaggeration to claim those games are "zero agency," because the players have control of their characters, and confusing because within that framework the term agency has a different and more specific connotation than "establishing the fiction" of the world. (btw if "low trust" is pejorative then so is "zero agency" imo)
I don't want to be mean, but this is just wrong for huge swathes of RPGs, including so-called "trad" ones.

In Rolemaster, establishing the fiction is not all in the hands of the GM. Eg if a player has their PC talk to a NPC, then if the upshot is contested (eg the player wants to befriend the NPC and the GM doesn't just go along with this) there is an expectation that the Influence and Interaction table will be used. This, in turn, dictates how the NPC responds. Ie the GM has neither sole nor unconstrained authority over the fiction.

Many similar examples could be given for RM, and for other games of a broadly similar character.
 


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