Take 20 on Open Lock?

[Hypersmurf]

Do you DM that often Hypersmurf?

As a longtime DM, I know with absolute certainty that players would take 20 every single time on a Search check for traps if I let them. The only time they wouldn't do this if I put them in a pressing situation where it was not possible to take 20. A situation that would limit the time to make a Search check for traps is rare.

I'm running RttToEE. It's not a static adventure - if the characters spend hours searching corridors for secret doors and doors for traps, they end up in hot water.

Twenty rounds spent determining that there is no trap on the sergeant's footlocker, and another twenty spent determining that there is no trap on his desk drawer, is forty rounds while the enemy reinforcements are prepping and buffing after the silent alarm went off...

-Hyp.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

There is another important consideration for players who want to take 20 searching every little thing: spell durations. How many protection/buff/vision/etc. spells do characters typically run around with? How many will wear off just searching the first three rooms the party passes through?

When GMing, I always assume the characters are taking 10, so obvious things will be spotted/found. If they decide to take 20, it's because they suspect something is there, or they really want to succeed on a check, e.g., searching for traps on a chest, picking a lock, escape artist while the guard's asleep, etc. By giving my players Take 10 all the time, I've cut out the Take 20 stuff by 95% or more.

RegardingTrainz' concern that players will always find secret doors (if the DC is too low) or never find them (if too high), Taking 10 lets me split the difference. A door that's easy to find will be in the range that at least one character can make with Take 10. A more difficult door will require Take 20 or a good roll. An impossible door will require some sort of divination magic or prior knowledge.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is another important consideration for players who want to take 20 searching every little thing: spell durations.

Yup.

"Maybe they have to get to the next encounter before the 1 min/level 3.5 Bull's Strength wears off "

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

Taking 20 on search on every room is not fun in a game, and DMs should find reasons against it. Eventually buffs run out, new creatures wonder in, reinforcements arive, or something else. Normally people won't ask to take 20 on every search, just on doors and such. That is fine, as it isn't every corner of the dungeon.

 

[Celtavian]

I'm running RttToEE. It's not a static adventure - if the characters spend hours searching corridors for secret doors and doors for traps, they end up in hot water.

Twenty rounds spent determining that there is no trap on the sergeant's footlocker, and another twenty spent determining that there is no trap on his desk drawer, is forty rounds while the enemy reinforcements are prepping and buffing after the silent alarm went off...

-Hyp.

Then this is an example of different playstyles, because when I played this module, we cleared out each area before we searched any of the rooms. The rogue, me, advance scouted most of the minor temples in the Outer Fane determing enemies and arranging sentry removals. We destroyed the enemy forces and searched the place at our leisure. We were very thorough. Different play styles can also influence how a DM decides to apply rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rogue, me, advance scouted most of the minor temples in the Outer Fane determing enemies and arranging sentry removals. We destroyed the enemy forces and searched the place at our leisure.

With the number of big nasties that have access to scrying and so forth in the Outer Fane, I don't foresee a lot of leisure for them by the time they finish off the CRM.

But as you say, it comes down to play style.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

I'm actually running into this in my own campaign at the moment, and it's a bit distressing. As much as I'd like to agree with Hypersmurf's intuition that taking more time should be a penalty, in reality I'm unable to impress this on my players. I basically have to agree with Trainz that things are either automatically found or missed.

Situation: A 3rd-level party with 5 characters, a continual flame torch, and trail rations. They have no long-term spell protections or buffs in action. Everyone involved is very rules-smart, especially the Rogue-player.

(1) They're happy to proceed at 5 ft/round so the Rogue can take 10 Search in every space. His total skill makes this result over 20, so every average trap and secret door is found.
(2) He definitely sees no drawback to a Take 20 on every Open Lock check for 2 minutes, automatically opening those.
(3) A 30x30 room, they're happy to have everyone divide up the walls and Take 20 to Search those if it's a dead-end. This takes less than 10 minutes, which they see as reasonable, and turns up any secret doors in the walls.
(4) When they're low on spells, they expect to barricade themselves in a room and sleep for 8 hours and re-achieve full strength.

Now, admittedly this is not a zone of active counterdefense or a race situation, but frankly I see those as the exception and not the rule. I apply additional wandering monster checks, and when those appear they snicker a bit at that being old-school. If I were to interrupt the 8 hour rest period with a counterattack, they'd perceive that as a cruel interruption which slows down the pace of the adventure/exploration -- I can't imagine they'd ever be persuaded to leave the dungeon to camp (the statement last night is that that would open them to attack from any side).


So from reading this thread, I'm fond of the idea of a "you must know what you're searching for" requirement for a Search Take 20, perhaps a formal declaration of exactly what one expects to find. (I don't want to delete it entirely, I too know how a missed secret door can wreck a plot sometimes.) Failing that, I'd almost want to introduce a penalty-on-1 for both Search and especially Open Locks just to prevent the Take 20, because yes, I can't convince my players that there's any reason not to do that.

 

[Metalsmith]

Save Yourself!!

So from reading this thread, I'm fond of the idea of a "you must know what you're searching for" requirement for a Search Take 20, perhaps a formal declaration of exactly what one expects to find. (I don't want to delete it entirely, I too know how a missed secret door can wreck a plot sometimes.)

All you'll end up doing is wasting 3x or more the time searching.
Player 1: I'll search for Traps
Player 2: I'll search for Secret Doors
Player 3: I'll search for Treasure
Player 4: I'll search for Clues

Player 1 again: Now I'll search for Secret Doors
Player 2 again: Now I'll search for Treasure
Player 3 again: ect.....

After many minutes of exteded searching.....

Group: "Ok, Next Room!"

Meanwhile they players will be wondering why you were Bitching about the time they took searching each room and then introducing a new rule that makes them spend even more time searching.

 

[LokiDR]

Now, admittedly this is not a zone of active counterdefense or a race situation, but frankly I see those as the exception and not the rule. I apply additional wandering monster checks, and when those appear they snicker a bit at that being old-school. If I were to interrupt the 8 hour rest period with a counterattack, they'd perceive that as a cruel interruption which slows down the pace of the adventure/exploration -- I can't imagine they'd ever be persuaded to leave the dungeon to camp (the statement last night is that that would open them to attack from any side).

This is a style matter. You know you can deter them, but they will complain so you don't. Now, you either change the rules or change your tatics as DM.

If they choose to camp in a hostile area, they have no right to complain about hostilities in the night. If players know the rules, so can the monsters. Attack them with hit and run tatics, preventing them from getting more than a few hours of sleep. You should be able to harry the right out, or wear them down entirely.

Alternatively, if the dungeon dwellers feal threatened by the invasion of the PCs, and the PCs give them time, the monsters will band together. Giving you enemy time is never a good thing to do, and this should be reflected in the game.

So from reading this thread, I'm fond of the idea of a "you must know what you're searching for" requirement for a Search Take 20, perhaps a formal declaration of exactly what one expects to find. (I don't want to delete it entirely, I too know how a missed secret door can wreck a plot sometimes.) Failing that, I'd almost want to introduce a penalty-on-1 for both Search and especially Open Locks just to prevent the Take 20, because yes, I can't convince my players that there's any reason not to do that.

House rules are up to you, but I don't think that "you must know what you're searching for" is a good one. I think it would just be better to start calling for concentration checks "you are too bored to do a good job", change the Take 20 rule to be 1 roll with +X (10 maybe) circumstance modifier, eliminate the Take 20 rule (make them roll 20 times, they will get a sense of how boring this is for the characters), impose a sliding penalty for retry (cumulative -1 per retry), or use the penalty on 1 for the offending skills.

If the party likes spending all that time and making sure they have everything, maybe it would be fine to leave it be. Makes the rogue feel useful. You will know exactly what they will and will not find. Some people like certainty. If your players like the pace and are having a blast with the current ruling, taking away their fun seems contray to point of the game: have fun.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(1) They're happy to proceed at 5 ft/round so the Rogue can take 10 Search in every space. His total skill makes this result over 20, so every average trap and secret door is found.

That's a round to Take 10 on a 5'x5' area.

If you have a ten foot wide corridor with a ten foot ceiling, every five feet of forward progress contains eight 5'x5' areas. Two on the floor, two on the ceiling, one on each wall at ground level, and one on each wall from eye-height to the ceiling.

And there could be traps, or secret doors, or secret panels, in any one.

To Take 10 searching every space means that to walk 40 feet down a corridor takes over 6 minutes.

-Hyp.