taking 10 - exactly what skills and skill uses are covered?

[Caliban]

Nothing spells "heroic" like falling to your death because the DM wouldn't let you take 10. :\

 

[Jhulae]

You're exactly right. A Hide check is an opposed roll made by the person you're trying to hide from. A Move Silent check is an opposed roll made by the person who might hear you. Miss the check once and you are heard/seen.

So by their very nature, Hide and Move Silently cannot be used with either Take 10 or Take 20.

Except that's not correct about the Take 10.

 

[phindar]

Nothing spells "heroic" like falling to your death because the DM wouldn't let you take 10. :\

Well, as I said above, that's why I prefer a karma mechanic like Hero or Action points so that any one bad roll isn't an instant death. But that's kind of a seperate issue. My point is that climbing down a 200' cliff face isn't 100% risk free in the real world, so it probably shouldn't be in the game. Take 10 is good as a convenience, to save time and avoid pointless rolling, but it shouldn't make the game less exciting.

And besides, if a character with no Climb skill tries to climb down a 200' cliff face and fails, isn't that the result of poor decision making rather than the fault of the GM? Featherfall is a fairly low level spell, safety ropes can be used by characters of any level, characters with good Climb skills can aid the untrained... in short, it allows them to treat it as a potentially lethal situation rather than a speedbump.

As a player, I enjoy the gambling aspect of the game, so I tend to use Take 10 only for rolls where I'm not particularly interested in the outcome (Survival rolls for scrounging, Craft or Perform checks to determine a daily wage, that sort of thing). It's a way to avoid tedious rolls. I don't think it should be used to avoid risk. Automatically succeeding doesn't feel very heroic to me, either.

 

[evilbob]

Nothing spells "heroic" like falling to your death because the DM wouldn't let you take 10. :\

Nothing spells "easy" like death-defying odds made trivial because you took 10!

I completely agree with the post you're mocking there: except that I think this sort of situation would definitely qualify as being "threatened or distracted." I know a 100' drop can be rather distracting to me. I guess it's a DM's call, but I think "situational hazzards" can certainly qualify as something negating your ability to take 10.

 

[bodhi]

Another problem I have with taking 10 on certain types of rolls is that it become a guarenteed success for an average, level 1 character. For example, a level 1 fighter (or even commoner) with a 10 in Wisdom could "take 10" on a survival check to "get along in the wild."

IMHO, Survival should probably be Trained Only, or with some sort of penalty for Untrained use. Although, the d20 Modern SRD actually specifies that a character can take 10 with Survival.

If a skill can be used like that, why even bother making a DC for anything that's 10 or less that's used out of combat? Anyone in the world with a +0 modifier in the relavent stat can do it 100% of the time.

Other penalties can apply. Climbing the hill is DC 5. Your armor check penalty is -6. If you're at a +0 total, taking 10 doesn't work.

Other skills are similar: anyone with a Cha of 8 and 1 rank in the skill can handle any animal out of combat, ever.

Handle an Animal

This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

So yeah, any apprentice can make the animal do a trick it already knows. Hit it with a stick, and taking 10 doesn't work any more. Also, adverse conditions can apply. Make a mule pull a wagon, take 10. Make a mule pull a wagon through a blizzard, or a jungle, or along steep cliff trails, you're gonna need some ranks, or make a real effort (and take the risk).

Anyone with 1 rank in profession and at least an 8 in Wis can make 5g / week. (This seems out of tune with the economy of the world.) Heck - anyone not distracted or threatened can steal a palm-sized object with 1 rank of sleight of hand. Anyone with 10 Int can make "typical" items with craft (again: strange for the economy).

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

Sleight of Hand is Trained Only. Okay, so the rookie thief with 8 Dex and 1 rank in SoH takes 10 and palms random widget at the market. The rookie shopkeep with 10 Wis takes 10, and sees the item "disappear". Mayhem ensues. Now, if the thief sets up a distraction, the shopkeep can't take 10, and the thief improves his chances.

Knowledge in particular still bothers me, mostly because it's a one-time shot. It seems really strange to be able to improve your chance of success by not being distracted for something you "either know or don't know."

IMHO, Knowledge rolls represent not just information known, but the ability to recall upon demand. If there's no pressure, and you've got time, take 20 (Can I remember this at all?). If someone's got a gun to your head, roll. If you're asked something in conversation, you take 10. If you've got a bunch of ranks, you can easily recall even highly esoteric details, and if you don't, you don't know anything that's not common knowledge.

 

[Caliban]

If you have no ranks in climb and can still make the climb DC by taking 10, then it's not a particularly dangerous or challenging climb, even if it is a 200 ft. drop.

Climbing a cliff is just something you do on the way to the real action, making climb rolls is not the "fun" part of the game.

If you want it to be "risky and exciting" then arrange the situation so that it's not a "Take 10" situation - there are patrolling guards and you have to make it down the cliff quickly to avoid being seen by the next patrol. The wind is kicking up and there was a light rain earlier - now the rope is swaying and slightly slick so the Climb DC is higher.

But if a reasonably cautious character (i.e. one who would be taking 10 if they could) suddenly has a 25% chance of plummeting to their death due to a low die roll... Well that just doesn't sound like much fun to me. Heroes die on camera, fighting the bad guys.

And adding in "action points" to justify disallowing taking 10, well that just seems like a more complicated way of doing removing the risk.

Although, if it makes the game more fun for you, then it obviously does what you need it to do.

 

[James McMurray]

IMHO, Knowledge rolls represent not just information known, but the ability to recall upon demand. If there's no pressure, and you've got time, take 20 (Can I remember this at all?).

You can't take 20 on Knowledge checks because there is no Try Again option.

 

[phindar]

And adding in "action points" to justify disallowing taking 10, well that just seems like a more complicated way of doing removing the risk.

Well, not exactly, because Hero Points are a resource. You don't remove the risk you pay to avoid the consequences. But again, not really on topic.

Climbing a cliff is just something you do on the way to the real action, making climb rolls is not the "fun" part of the game.

I disagree. I think rapelling down a 200' cliff in the dead of night has plenty of potential for excitement. (One of my favorite encounters in an old game dealt with how the party got two wagons across a wide river; it was certainly more interesting than the 8th time we fought orcs.) I love combat, and I enjoy a good bloodbath, but I wouldn't go as far to say that its the only source of excitement in the game.

 

[Caliban]

I disagree.

That's fine.

I love combat, and I enjoy a good bloodbath, but I wouldn't go as far to say that its the only source of excitement in the game.

I don't believe I said anything like that. I just don't find climbing ropes to be a source of excitement.

 

[argo]

This makes no sense to me on certain checks, like when you only get 1 shot no matter what and being threatened/distracted makes no difference. My best example is Knowledge checks.

Having only 1 shot at it makes no difference. Remember when you take 10 you are not attempting the skill check repeatedly (that is take 20). When you take 10 it means your clear your mind, focus on the task at hand, and do your solid average effort. You produce nothing extrodinary because you are not trying to excede your potential but you do not screw up badly because nothing is "threatening or distracting" you into screwing up. You look at your handiwork and go "eh, close enough for government work"

Another problem I have with taking 10 on certain types of rolls is that it become a guarenteed success for an average, level 1 character. For example, a level 1 fighter (or even commoner) with a 10 in Wisdom could "take 10" on a survival check to "get along in the wild." If a skill can be used like that, why even bother making a DC for anything that's 10 or less that's used out of combat? Anyone in the world with a +0 modifier in the relavent stat can do it 100% of the time. Other skills are similar: anyone with a Cha of 8 and 1 rank in the skill can handle any animal out of combat, ever.

But this sort of thing is exactly what the Take 10 rules are for. Cooking your pancakes in the morning? Take 10. Driving to work listening to the morning radio show? Take 10. Punch in, file your paperwork, return some calls and punch out? Take 10 all the way.

That guy with 1 rank in Handle Animal and a Cha 8? Yeah, that guy has a name. He is a teamster and taking 10 to drive an animal out of combat is all he does. Lucky for him he's union eh?

Embrace the Take 10. Meidocrity is a beautiful thing.