Tell Me About EarthDawn.
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Wik
First Post
I played it.
It's an alright system, and I like the general idea of the world. Essentially ,it was a highly magical land dominated by a distant empire (the Therans) who enslaved much of the population. Then came the horrors - supernatural terrors from the astral plane who consumed everything. People knew about the horrors coming, and they built underground cities called Kaers to stay safe.
A hundred or so years in the Kaers, and the horrors (mostly) were forced back to the astral plane. But many kaers had been destroyed, or invaded by a horror or whatnot. So, many kaers opened up (and a few haven't yet, and are forgotten) and the people are now busily resettling the world.
It was a good fantasy setting, that had a strong magical element with a tinge of horror. Since dungeons were essentially built into the setting, that was a huge plus. ONe thing I really liked about it was that humans were not the primary mover and shaker race in the setting - that role fell to the dwarves. Humans were not the most numerous, or the ones in charge. COnsidering that this game came out when 2e was in full sway - and 2e had a strong emphasis that humans ruled all - that was a nice touch that set it apart.
Really, though, we didn't like it. It was the only FASA game we had that we never really got behind. The rules mechanics were a bit wonky, and I have always hated that ALL classes were inherently magical. And you had to perform a magical "karma ritual" to essentially level up. The class system in the main book was fairly limited, with each class offering a fairly narrow role in play - it's hard to create that exact character you have in mind, really.
The real fault in the system, though, is the magic system. It's needlessly complex, with "spell matrices" that need to be filled, and open matrices, and... half-filled matrixes... and... gah. Really, it meant that PCs had to memorize some spells, and could cast some spells on the fly, and some were half cast, meaning it would take less time to cast them. We never really got it, and it was the magic system's lameness that made sure we kept playing AD&D.
On the plus side, the spells were pretty neat. They weren't just "this is our version of fireball", for the most part. And each class had talents, and many of these magical talents were equally cool.
Magical items were equally weird. You essentially had to learn the item's lore to be able to use it, and the more you knew about the item, the better it became. Maybe that's cool, and I like the idea of magical items getting better as you get better (and the system sort of assumed there'd be fewer magical items in play compared to D&D), but I don't like how it worked out. Besides, in a setting where the PCs are supposed to be the big heroes (sort of like Dawnforge, the d20 setting), I would've thought it'd be cooler to see PCs' own items becoming magical on their own. That would make more sense, to me.
There are a lot of cool things about the setting, though. It's not medieval in flavour, instead having a highly magical bronze-age feel to it. There are some really cool races, like the tiny fairy-like windlings, the stone-skinned Obsidimen, and the viking like trolls that raided the land in flying skyships.
Another thing I liked was that, at a time when every game was experimenting with crazy skill systems, Earthdawn more or less said "PCs are magical beings, and not really concerned with learning mundane skills" - you didn't have more than one or two skills at first level. But ALL PCs learned artisan skills - singing, songwriting, whatever you wanted.
The reasoning was, those who had been touched by a horror were suddenly unable to create anything new. And horror-touched could do all sorts of nasty things - the horror could make the poor soul open the wards to a kaer, for example. So, people would show off their creative side as a means of showing others that they were not touched by the horrors.
One thing I really like about all FASA rulebooks is the short story, and the one in the Earthdawn book is a great example. It shows the three PCs escaping from an Ork tribe, and then exploring a "dungeon" - a kaer that nobody left alive. And then, of course, the PCs confront a horror. It really gives the reader a feel for what the setting is about.
No, the big problem with the game is the limited selection of character classes (though later books would expand on them) and the confusing magic system. The inherent magic of the system is cool, but unavoidable, which I don't like. And, really, the game was a bit too rules-heavy for our tastes, especially when compared to AD&D. But it's definately a game worth taking a look at.
It's an alright system, and I like the general idea of the world. Essentially ,it was a highly magical land dominated by a distant empire (the Therans) who enslaved much of the population. Then came the horrors - supernatural terrors from the astral plane who consumed everything. People knew about the horrors coming, and they built underground cities called Kaers to stay safe.
A hundred or so years in the Kaers, and the horrors (mostly) were forced back to the astral plane. But many kaers had been destroyed, or invaded by a horror or whatnot. So, many kaers opened up (and a few haven't yet, and are forgotten) and the people are now busily resettling the world.
It was a good fantasy setting, that had a strong magical element with a tinge of horror. Since dungeons were essentially built into the setting, that was a huge plus. ONe thing I really liked about it was that humans were not the primary mover and shaker race in the setting - that role fell to the dwarves. Humans were not the most numerous, or the ones in charge. COnsidering that this game came out when 2e was in full sway - and 2e had a strong emphasis that humans ruled all - that was a nice touch that set it apart.
Really, though, we didn't like it. It was the only FASA game we had that we never really got behind. The rules mechanics were a bit wonky, and I have always hated that ALL classes were inherently magical. And you had to perform a magical "karma ritual" to essentially level up. The class system in the main book was fairly limited, with each class offering a fairly narrow role in play - it's hard to create that exact character you have in mind, really.
The real fault in the system, though, is the magic system. It's needlessly complex, with "spell matrices" that need to be filled, and open matrices, and... half-filled matrixes... and... gah. Really, it meant that PCs had to memorize some spells, and could cast some spells on the fly, and some were half cast, meaning it would take less time to cast them. We never really got it, and it was the magic system's lameness that made sure we kept playing AD&D.
On the plus side, the spells were pretty neat. They weren't just "this is our version of fireball", for the most part. And each class had talents, and many of these magical talents were equally cool.
Magical items were equally weird. You essentially had to learn the item's lore to be able to use it, and the more you knew about the item, the better it became. Maybe that's cool, and I like the idea of magical items getting better as you get better (and the system sort of assumed there'd be fewer magical items in play compared to D&D), but I don't like how it worked out. Besides, in a setting where the PCs are supposed to be the big heroes (sort of like Dawnforge, the d20 setting), I would've thought it'd be cooler to see PCs' own items becoming magical on their own. That would make more sense, to me.
There are a lot of cool things about the setting, though. It's not medieval in flavour, instead having a highly magical bronze-age feel to it. There are some really cool races, like the tiny fairy-like windlings, the stone-skinned Obsidimen, and the viking like trolls that raided the land in flying skyships.
Another thing I liked was that, at a time when every game was experimenting with crazy skill systems, Earthdawn more or less said "PCs are magical beings, and not really concerned with learning mundane skills" - you didn't have more than one or two skills at first level. But ALL PCs learned artisan skills - singing, songwriting, whatever you wanted.
The reasoning was, those who had been touched by a horror were suddenly unable to create anything new. And horror-touched could do all sorts of nasty things - the horror could make the poor soul open the wards to a kaer, for example. So, people would show off their creative side as a means of showing others that they were not touched by the horrors.
One thing I really like about all FASA rulebooks is the short story, and the one in the Earthdawn book is a great example. It shows the three PCs escaping from an Ork tribe, and then exploring a "dungeon" - a kaer that nobody left alive. And then, of course, the PCs confront a horror. It really gives the reader a feel for what the setting is about.
No, the big problem with the game is the limited selection of character classes (though later books would expand on them) and the confusing magic system. The inherent magic of the system is cool, but unavoidable, which I don't like. And, really, the game was a bit too rules-heavy for our tastes, especially when compared to AD&D. But it's definately a game worth taking a look at.
Aholibamah
First Post
The previous post pretty much sums up my own views about the faults of the system along with some of the unique flavour of the game which is what makes it enticing.
I'll add this: the horrors have a strong effect on the game for atmosphere, history and even insofar as creating the actual environment of the game. They are demonic beings as stated but the game states that they basically feed on pain and suffering. This can range from the purely physical to more subtle psychological attacks. Some of them are as powerful as gods, while others are small and almost mindless. Unlike in many other games they are all so twisted that merely encountering them can have a lasting and unsettling effect. Their attacks are not merely unpleasant but tend to have a truly horrific element (these have vivid names like 'fleshcraft' 'thought worm' )
In the context of the game the kaers as described were opened but a little too soon--the horrors are not yet gone.
A few other things that are cool: the setting in general has really interesting landmarks--for example one entire sea is made of molten rock; a realm of elves is dominated by thorns rather than lovely trees and the elves themselves are melded with the thorns. There are flying cities, underground cities of dwarves, ancient ruins and demon haunted mountains.
Overall I'd say that the setting makes the game very interesting, but be prepared if you get it to have to tweak elements of the system that are frustrating.
I'll add this: the horrors have a strong effect on the game for atmosphere, history and even insofar as creating the actual environment of the game. They are demonic beings as stated but the game states that they basically feed on pain and suffering. This can range from the purely physical to more subtle psychological attacks. Some of them are as powerful as gods, while others are small and almost mindless. Unlike in many other games they are all so twisted that merely encountering them can have a lasting and unsettling effect. Their attacks are not merely unpleasant but tend to have a truly horrific element (these have vivid names like 'fleshcraft' 'thought worm' )
In the context of the game the kaers as described were opened but a little too soon--the horrors are not yet gone.
A few other things that are cool: the setting in general has really interesting landmarks--for example one entire sea is made of molten rock; a realm of elves is dominated by thorns rather than lovely trees and the elves themselves are melded with the thorns. There are flying cities, underground cities of dwarves, ancient ruins and demon haunted mountains.
Overall I'd say that the setting makes the game very interesting, but be prepared if you get it to have to tweak elements of the system that are frustrating.
I think it's an excellent setting. The background, the races, and the disciplines (= classes) are all very flavourful. It's a very magical setting (similar to Eberron: low-level magic is plentyful, high-level magic almost unheard of).
Races are pretty well balanced by granting them different karma dice (think: action points).
The Disciplines aren't as well balanced, unfortunately. This is mainly because some talents (= powers/maneuvers) are obviously more powerful than others. They're also quite focused which may become a problem if your party consists of less than the ideal number of 5-8 characters.
However you can alleviate the problem with 'multiclassing'. It's actually possible to learn an unlimited number of different disciplines - provided you will find someone willing to teach you.
Human also receive a racial talent to learn talents from other disciplines.
The game mechanics are very pleasing in a mathematical sense but take some getting used to when applied in the game: Basically, when your talent rank increases you'll roll different dice. I.e. you start with a d4, next rank you get a d6, and so on until after a d12 you get 2d6. Since you get a reroll if you roll the highest number on a die the system is both open-ended and exactly represents your chance to succeed. The end result also determines a degree of success.
The combat system is easy to use but still offers interesting tactical options.
I think the magic system itself is pretty easy to use. You can learn any number of spells but only prepare as many as you have magical matrices. Prepared spells can be used over and over and preparing a new spell can be done on the fly (with a chance of failure) or after a 10 minute period of rest (without chance of failure).
The part that is difficult to understand is the astral space and how it affects magic.
While the spells are mostly very flavourful and fun, their balancing is terrible. The differences in power of spells at the same level is sometimes appalling.
Artifacts ( = magic items) are brilliantly done. They formed the basis for D&D's Weapons of Legacy. You have to investigate their background, make quests and invest resources to bind them to yourself making the items more powerful in the process. I've yet to see a better system!
Monsters are pretty interesting and unique to the setting. The only problem is a very low number of medium-threat creatures. There's lots of relatively weak ones and lots of very dangerous ones, most notably the Horrors. Horrors (think: cthulhu/mythos creatures) are central to the setting and remind me a lot of the Solo monsters in 4E: They get multiple attack and spellcasting actions each round to be a threat for large parties. They also typically have several Horror powers that work very well as plot hooks (including the ability to mark characters to make them eligible targets for other powers over extremely long distances without a time-limit).
To sum it up: A very fun system that is full of groundbreaking ideas and easily on par with earlier editions of D&D. One of my big hopes for 4E is that it will be like Earthdawn only with proper balancing.
Races are pretty well balanced by granting them different karma dice (think: action points).
The Disciplines aren't as well balanced, unfortunately. This is mainly because some talents (= powers/maneuvers) are obviously more powerful than others. They're also quite focused which may become a problem if your party consists of less than the ideal number of 5-8 characters.
However you can alleviate the problem with 'multiclassing'. It's actually possible to learn an unlimited number of different disciplines - provided you will find someone willing to teach you.
Human also receive a racial talent to learn talents from other disciplines.
The game mechanics are very pleasing in a mathematical sense but take some getting used to when applied in the game: Basically, when your talent rank increases you'll roll different dice. I.e. you start with a d4, next rank you get a d6, and so on until after a d12 you get 2d6. Since you get a reroll if you roll the highest number on a die the system is both open-ended and exactly represents your chance to succeed. The end result also determines a degree of success.
The combat system is easy to use but still offers interesting tactical options.
I think the magic system itself is pretty easy to use. You can learn any number of spells but only prepare as many as you have magical matrices. Prepared spells can be used over and over and preparing a new spell can be done on the fly (with a chance of failure) or after a 10 minute period of rest (without chance of failure).
The part that is difficult to understand is the astral space and how it affects magic.
While the spells are mostly very flavourful and fun, their balancing is terrible. The differences in power of spells at the same level is sometimes appalling.
Artifacts ( = magic items) are brilliantly done. They formed the basis for D&D's Weapons of Legacy. You have to investigate their background, make quests and invest resources to bind them to yourself making the items more powerful in the process. I've yet to see a better system!
Monsters are pretty interesting and unique to the setting. The only problem is a very low number of medium-threat creatures. There's lots of relatively weak ones and lots of very dangerous ones, most notably the Horrors. Horrors (think: cthulhu/mythos creatures) are central to the setting and remind me a lot of the Solo monsters in 4E: They get multiple attack and spellcasting actions each round to be a threat for large parties. They also typically have several Horror powers that work very well as plot hooks (including the ability to mark characters to make them eligible targets for other powers over extremely long distances without a time-limit).
To sum it up: A very fun system that is full of groundbreaking ideas and easily on par with earlier editions of D&D. One of my big hopes for 4E is that it will be like Earthdawn only with proper balancing.
theskyfullofdust
First Post
I once owned and played EarthDawn. I loved the setting, truly a points-of-light setting and have recently been considering using the general ideas for a new campaign.
I agree that the system never quite gelled for me, always seemed a bit too clunky, and there were a lack of monsters to use.
I did like the idea that each magic item was unqiue, and I have used that idea for the majority of the magic items in my D&D games, giving the more potent and interesting items a brief history (good for Badric Knowledge).
I only played it when the first edition came out. Was there, or is there, a newer edition?
I agree that the system never quite gelled for me, always seemed a bit too clunky, and there were a lack of monsters to use.
I did like the idea that each magic item was unqiue, and I have used that idea for the majority of the magic items in my D&D games, giving the more potent and interesting items a brief history (good for Badric Knowledge).
I only played it when the first edition came out. Was there, or is there, a newer edition?
Wik
First Post
See, Jhaelen, I disagree with much of what you said, but I'm happy you enjoyed the game more than we did.
When we started playing Earthdawn, it was near the end of our FASA phase. We were regular D&D players, and switched to DARK SUN D&D because it was a helluva lot cooler than plain old medieval D&D. We really liked weird fantasy.
We started getting into FASA games, mostly because we liked the way the products were laid out, and the focus on storytelling (with gamist rules).
When we picked up Earthdawn, though, the general complaint was that it was much like D&D in too many ways. Random ability score generation was one thing that really irked us, as we had always figured FASA games should follow the priority system (still one of my favourite CharGen mechanics). And we didn't like the class-based system at all - we figured either go completely class-less, or allow for more flexibility in character design, like AD&D.
(I should mention here that that statement isn't exactly true; both AD&D and Earthdawn were fairly limited in what the classes could actually do. In many ways, Earthdawn offered a wider variety of character archetypes then D&D, purely from a rules standpoint. But, I always found that a fighter in D&D could just as easily be an archer as a knight... in Earthdawn, it always seemed like one archer is much like another)
The innate magic of the setting was also something I was never able to grok - but then, our group always liked gritty, low-magic worlds. Really, I always thought magic should be an all or nothing affair. You're either a full wizard, or you can't use magic at all. And since all earthdawn characters were adepts of one sort or another... yeah, it didn't fit well.
I don't remember much about playing it. I do remember that there were only two players - my friend James and I. I was playing an archer (probably human), and James was a T'Skrang (think Lizardman) Swordsman (Swashbuckler?). Our first adventure involved some basic fights against zombies, and there was an evil nethermancer involved somehow.
I remember there being a lot of fiddly issues with talents (one of us totally dominated; I don't remember who), and once the nethermancer got involved, the GM got lost in the spell system. Spellcasting checks abounded; and they weren't relatively easy, as in Shadowrun.
When we played again, I tried to make a mage, and that's what killed the game for me.
That being said, there's some great things in this setting, and I'm tempted to pick up the second edition and the Earthdawn Companion (which has new disciplines, plus rules for playing disciplines, and I think it adds "Cleric" PCs). I think it could work for a mini-campaign... maybe.
As a plus, Earthdawn had the best art in the business at the time. Lots of full-colour inserts, and they were pretty nifty. And the feel of the world was very non-medieval, which was a plus for us. Like most of FASA's art, though, it hasn't aged well.
When we started playing Earthdawn, it was near the end of our FASA phase. We were regular D&D players, and switched to DARK SUN D&D because it was a helluva lot cooler than plain old medieval D&D. We really liked weird fantasy.
We started getting into FASA games, mostly because we liked the way the products were laid out, and the focus on storytelling (with gamist rules).
When we picked up Earthdawn, though, the general complaint was that it was much like D&D in too many ways. Random ability score generation was one thing that really irked us, as we had always figured FASA games should follow the priority system (still one of my favourite CharGen mechanics). And we didn't like the class-based system at all - we figured either go completely class-less, or allow for more flexibility in character design, like AD&D.
(I should mention here that that statement isn't exactly true; both AD&D and Earthdawn were fairly limited in what the classes could actually do. In many ways, Earthdawn offered a wider variety of character archetypes then D&D, purely from a rules standpoint. But, I always found that a fighter in D&D could just as easily be an archer as a knight... in Earthdawn, it always seemed like one archer is much like another)
The innate magic of the setting was also something I was never able to grok - but then, our group always liked gritty, low-magic worlds. Really, I always thought magic should be an all or nothing affair. You're either a full wizard, or you can't use magic at all. And since all earthdawn characters were adepts of one sort or another... yeah, it didn't fit well.
I don't remember much about playing it. I do remember that there were only two players - my friend James and I. I was playing an archer (probably human), and James was a T'Skrang (think Lizardman) Swordsman (Swashbuckler?). Our first adventure involved some basic fights against zombies, and there was an evil nethermancer involved somehow.
I remember there being a lot of fiddly issues with talents (one of us totally dominated; I don't remember who), and once the nethermancer got involved, the GM got lost in the spell system. Spellcasting checks abounded; and they weren't relatively easy, as in Shadowrun.
When we played again, I tried to make a mage, and that's what killed the game for me.
That being said, there's some great things in this setting, and I'm tempted to pick up the second edition and the Earthdawn Companion (which has new disciplines, plus rules for playing disciplines, and I think it adds "Cleric" PCs). I think it could work for a mini-campaign... maybe.
As a plus, Earthdawn had the best art in the business at the time. Lots of full-colour inserts, and they were pretty nifty. And the feel of the world was very non-medieval, which was a plus for us. Like most of FASA's art, though, it hasn't aged well.
Played and enjoyed it, going to have to dig it out to look at it again.
While the Step System for dice started out strange, it did not cause issues.
Remember liking the magic system, had to thread magic (calling magic to you, each spell had a number of threads required to cast it) and then cast it (releasing it at target), this was made quicker by hooking spells on a matrix attached to your spirit, you then skipped the threading of magic and just went with casting - this was compared to loading a gun for the day. While casting raw magic was possible, it was a becon to the horrors that lived in astral space and had some draw backs.
Magic items were a cool concept, the more you used them, they became identified to you, part of your legend, magic enhanced them. If you found an item, there was a story behind it.
Horrors were lovecraftian, always good stuff.
Then you had your tie in to Shadowrun, mostly the dragons but a couple of NPCs.
While the Step System for dice started out strange, it did not cause issues.
Remember liking the magic system, had to thread magic (calling magic to you, each spell had a number of threads required to cast it) and then cast it (releasing it at target), this was made quicker by hooking spells on a matrix attached to your spirit, you then skipped the threading of magic and just went with casting - this was compared to loading a gun for the day. While casting raw magic was possible, it was a becon to the horrors that lived in astral space and had some draw backs.
Magic items were a cool concept, the more you used them, they became identified to you, part of your legend, magic enhanced them. If you found an item, there was a story behind it.
Horrors were lovecraftian, always good stuff.
Then you had your tie in to Shadowrun, mostly the dragons but a couple of NPCs.
Wik said:
I've been checkin' this out today. The Earthdawn Player's Compendium and the Earthdawn Gamemaster's Compendium (with some recent updates) are available through RedBrick Limitied via Lulu.com. Both the books are huge--500 pgs. plus and $50 plus each in hardback.
And then there's Earthdawn 2nd Edition (via Living Room Games). It doesn't look like it is currently in print, but there are used copies that don't seem too hard to get. They seem to be runnin' in the $20-$30 range. And the Earthdawn Companion seems to be available--again, not being currently printed--for about the same amount, or a bit cheaper.
Pricewise, the used stuff would be better on the pocketbook, but the Redbrick books look pretty neat. I'm just wondering what the difference is in the material. I wonder if Earthdawn 2nd Edition stuff is mostly in Redbrick's "Earthdawn Player's Companion" or the "Gamemaster's Companion" or if there is no correlation at all. Maybe I'll e-mail them and find out.
ADD: Earthdawn editions explained. Gotta love Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthdawn#Second_edition
Last edited:
I have Earthdawn on the CD they were giving away at GenCon...long time ago now!
Matrix Sorcica
Hero
The Redbrick editions are the ones you want.
I haven't checke them out, but hopefully they solve the holes in the system that eventually let me and my group to abandon Earthdawn.
There was only 'roleplaying' reasons to not let your weaponsmith max out the group's weapons, totally outclassing any magic item, and the human versatility created unholy combinations.
A windling could kill antire party as the only dicipline to get ranged combat before 4th circle were archers.
The idea with the magic items was nice. However, you had to spend xp on them. Those xp were better spent on talent and weaponsmithing.
But we (I) liked the system a lot and the setting is pure awesome.
I haven't checke them out, but hopefully they solve the holes in the system that eventually let me and my group to abandon Earthdawn.
There was only 'roleplaying' reasons to not let your weaponsmith max out the group's weapons, totally outclassing any magic item, and the human versatility created unholy combinations.
A windling could kill antire party as the only dicipline to get ranged combat before 4th circle were archers.
The idea with the magic items was nice. However, you had to spend xp on them. Those xp were better spent on talent and weaponsmithing.
But we (I) liked the system a lot and the setting is pure awesome.
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