Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[smetzger]

However, at least at lower levels SNA brings out way better things than SM. If you can get a celestial of fiendish whatever, or an elemental, with a Summon Monster N, you can get a normal whatever, or the same elemental, with Summon Nature's Ally N-1. That's pretty powerful, getting a dire badger, hippogriff, or crocodile with a 2nd level spell. I imagine that the celestial/fiendish monsters will be more worth it with the higher-level spells, when they get DR and better resistances, but personally I'd rather have a normal crocodile on my side for 4 rounds at level 4 than a celestial riding dog.

The DR on the Elementals is better.

 

[Felix]

The Elementals on the Nature's Ally list are much more effective at combat than things on the Summmon Monster list.

As you like. It just makes the Druid's spell list even better. I was hedging.

 

[Vargo]

True, if the Summoned animal's attack hits. At higher levels, that's a big issue. My Clr 14 summoner is currently having "issues" with that.

That's why Alienist is such a great prestige class - That True Strike 1/day is a VERY nice little grapple enhancer.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Thing is, buffing isn't part of a fighter's repertoire: it's part of a druid's. It seems to me that you're saying a high-AC fighter build could do fine vs. four dire bears, with the help of a druid or cleric. And that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

I was trying to keep things simple. A 12th level Fighter with half a brain would drink a Potion of Levitate/Fly or activate his Winged Boots and leisurely murder the bears with arrows. He could easily have his own means of nullifying Improved Grab and an AC sufficient to outlast those soft squishy Power Attack punching bags he is lined up against.

So, no, the Fighter does not necessarily need anyone else's help at all.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The argument is not that Druids are Uber, so if you're looking for it, of course you're going to find hot air: because those arguments arn't bloody well being made.

In any given situation, the Druid will be doing more than holding their own, but they won't be owning the show. The point is that they will be doing that in every single situation. They will not "pwm3z u!!!1!!", but they will consistently perform at the level of effectiveness of the guy who is supposed to be the best at doing whatever it is that needs doing.

So put away the anti-smackdown rhetoric, because smackdown builds arn't being suggested.

It would be nice if someone could actual name one or two of these scenarios. Because clearly I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Felix]

It would be nice if someone could actual name one or two of these scenarios. Because clearly I have no idea what you are talking about.

My apologies, I thought I already had...

Melee: The Druid can Wildshape and tangle up with foes, and has the ability to heal himself passably well.

Healing: Not as good as the Cleric, but he can prepare Cure spells, and Wildshape heals himself.

Scouting: Again, Wildshape is key here, and he can become a fairly innocuous rat in urban environments, or a hawk in natural ones. As such he is generally undetectable by enemies because he is in plain sight. Nature Sense gives the Druid a slight edge over the Ranger in Survival, as long as it's not about tracking Favored Enemies.

Support Spells: The Druid has some great buffs, and while Summon Nature's Ally doesn't have the punch that Summon Monster does, he can do it at a whim. He has the best caster's anti-melee abjuration in the game in Anti-life Shell. Can Scry for "free", and pretty much anywhere.

Attack Spells: These don't really come into their own until the higher levels, but when the Druid reaches 5th level spells he starts laying the hurt down. If you are skeptical, read Sepulchrave's story hour... in it you will see a single druid laying waste to an Army with strong clerical support.

Skills: Outdoorsy in nature, but they arn't bad; Listen and Spot go a long way, specially for casters. And while Clerics, Wizards and Sorcs languish under 2+INT for skills, the Druid has a nice 4+.

Information Gathering: In natural environments the Druid is the best info-gatherer in the game, what with Stone Tell, Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants. In urban environs, he has Diplomacy as a class skill, and the role-playing advantage of being able to say that he represents Nature... and that Nature is something the urbanites don't want to upset.

Character Interaction: Again, the Druid can rely on Diplomacy to help here. It won't be as powerful because the Bluff, Sense Motive and Know (royalty) skill are cross-class, but it can be strong. The Druid's spell list does not help much here. It's campaign specific, but a society of druids is common, and a built-in support for the Druid character.

 

[two]

[...]

True, if the Summoned animal's attack hits. At higher levels, that's a big issue. My Clr 14 summoner is currently having "issues" with that.

As I said, it's pretty nice to get your summoned monsters/animals to grapple. A lot of them are pretty good at it (some even with improved grapple etc. abilities).

This helps to nullify the "can't hit very well" issue. Initiating a grapple's just a melee touch attack, after all. Unless you roll REALLY bad, most grappling-capable summoned monsters will hit pretty often (to initiate the grapple; after that it's a opposed grapple check crap shoot, which favors the summoned animals -- because they are many and disposable, and the enemy ain't, typically).

Your Cleric14 doesn't even use the nice Nature's Ally lists -- still, there ought to be some fun summonable grapplers at your level -- !!

 

[thalmin]

It's simply this: no weaknesses. As another poster stated already.

(snip)
The one glaring weakness is a a druid's comparatively "low" AC when wildshapred; this can be fixed with a monk's belt/wilding clasp/wild armor/etc. It is probably the Druid's #1 focus for wonderous items, and as such the problem can be surmounted.

Not only when wildshaped, the druid has a poor AC in druid form as well. A druid may only wear hide, leather, or padded armor, he is prohibitted from wearing metal armor.
Still, this is the ONLY weak area for a druid.

 

[Pielorinho]

I was trying to keep things simple. A 12th level Fighter with half a brain would drink a Potion of Levitate/Fly or activate his Winged Boots and leisurely murder the bears with arrows.

If the fighter could do this, so could the druid, substituting sling stones for arrows. Again, compare a druid using best tactics to another character using best tactics if you want to see how they stack up against each other. If you posit that the fighter is wisely getting out of combat while the druid is unwisely charging into combat, of course you'll find the druid not faring so well.

Daniel

 

[Mad Mac]

Hmmm, Druid with sling vs Dire bears...I think the Bears would be wandering off out of boredom before he killed anything.

Bear#1 Hey Fred!

Bear#2 Sup, Ralph?

Bear#1 Not much.

Bear#2 Who's the skinny chap in the tree?

Bear#1 I dunno. I was gonna eat him, but he climbed up there and starting throwing rocks at me. Ow!

Bear#2 Man, he's just barely hanging on there, isn't he? Maybe I should give it a shake...*thawp* Doesn't that hurt?

Bear#1 Not really, just kinda smarts a bit. *ow!* Ok, that's it, I'm getting out of here. (to Druid) Knock it off already, you big lamer!

Bear#2 Not so fast Fred. *pulls out rulebook* Ow! You're right, that is annoying.

Bear#1 Tell me about it. Whats with the book anyway?

Bear#2 Just double checking something. *puts on reading glasses* Yup, I was right.

Bear#1 What? *Ow!* Can't this wait?

Bears#2 Says here you need 2 hands to load a sling.

Bear#1 Oh yeah? *Loud thump* You hungry?

Bear#2 *Shrug* I could eat.