Tell me why I'm wrong about grappling. Please.

[Enkhidu]

OK, so I've been going over the benefits of grappling in the SRD and ran across a troubling though. Let's start with the SRD text about initiating and completeing a grapple.

Grapple Checks

Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small –4, Tiny –8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.
Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

OK let's look at this, using, say, a monk of 11th level (BAB +8), with Improved Grapple and a Strength of 18. We'll call him Hogan, and we'll assume that he succeeds on each attack and grapple check.

Now let's asume for a moment that Hogan is fighting a medium sized creature without any feats that affect grappling, and on his turn starts next to that opponent. He makes a touch attack (at +12) and succeeds, and then a grapple check (at +16). After inflicting damage, he then chooses NOT to enter his target's space and thus ends the grapple. Then he begins the cycle anew with another touch attack (this time at +7), and a grapple check of +16.

So, assuming this is true, Hogan has just managed to turn his full attack action into a series of touch attacks at no real cost to himself.

Now is the part where you tell me why I'm wrong. I have the feeling that I am, but I want to know why.

EDIT: Because I suck at tags.

 

[reveal]

No, you're right. You can keep grappling for as many attacks as you have. But so what? You don't do any damage. What's the point?

 

[Enkhidu]

Re-read steps 3 and 4. If you succeed in the grapple check, you do inflict damage equal to an unarmed strike (1d10+4 in this case). Hence my problem.

 

[glass]

No, you're right. You can keep grappling for as many attacks as you have. But so what? You don't do any damage. What's the point?

AIUI, you do deal damage, bit no more than if you had held on and used your remaining attacks to damage your opponent, without all the extra touch attacks.


glass.

 

[Shin Okada]

You are using a full-attack action. For each additional attacks you make, your BAB drops by 5, cumulatively. So your grapple check modifier drops, too. So it becomes harder to inflict damages. Remember the defender uses his full BAB because he is not making a full-attack.

Also, it will become much harder to inflict damages by grapple when opponent has Close Quarter Fighting feat (from CW) or when your opponent is a larger monster.

 

[reveal]

Re-read steps 3 and 4. If you succeed in the grapple check, you do inflict damage equal to an unarmed strike (1d10+4 in this case). Hence my problem.

Then how about this. It says you "must" move into the square to maintain it and then specifies what happens if you "can't" not "if you decide not to."

 

[dcollins]

Agree with Shin Okada. Your BAB (for the "Hold") is a different number for each attack in the round.

 

[Infiniti2000]

We'll call him Hogan, and we'll assume that he succeeds on each attack and grapple check.

That's a big assumption. You're turning a single attack roll into an attack roll followed by a grapple check.

 

[werk]

Agree with Shin Okada. Your BAB (for the "Hold") is a different number for each attack in the round.

I've always played that the grapple check in step 3 is at the same AB as the touch attack in step 2.

Otherwise you could never successfully grapple unless you had iterative attacks.

Grapple 1, step 2: Touch attack at BAB+Str= +12
Grapple 1, step 3: Grapple check at BAB+Str+Size mod=+12
(if win grapple check them unarmed damage, skip step 4, no move)
Grapple 2, Step 2: Touch attack at +7
Grapple 2, Step 3: Grapple check at +7

So, to me, the grapple check should either be at FULL BAB, or the same as the touch attack.

Now is the part where people tell me that I'm wrong...but I don't see where the OP got +16.

 

[Pinotage]

Now is the part where people tell me that I'm wrong...but I don't see where the OP got +16.

Improved Grapple Feat - grants +4 on grapple checks.

Pinotage