Tempest Fighter or Melee Ranger?

[DracoSuave]

There's no reason you can't have a Battlerager or Tempest in Plate. You just won't get the feature's bonus damage when doing so.

Tempest doesn't give anything at all to a flail-user in plate. No off-hand weapons. And moving 1d10s to 1d6s in order to get +2 damage isn't increasing or giving the guy any benefit whatsoever. For x>1[W] powers, it's less damage. He's better off with One-Handed so he can have a total of +4 to his weapons. More accurate than a ranger in that situation.

Battlerager doesn't make him more accurate, so he'll -only- be getting temp hps, and not at a good rate either. When the ideal is a damage-dealing plate using double-wielder, you need to optimize with that in mind. From here, he can take Two-Weapon Fighting, Action Surge, all the great human feats, and his Paragon options are not limited either. His Dex will be good, so he can go into Stormwarden and truly shine as a dual weapon beast of smish.

 

[Flipguarder]

So I finished making this character yesterday this is what I got

Drago the flailer
lvl 8 Human Ranger MC: Barbarian
Background: Scholar


Abilities

Str: 18 (human +2)
Con: 16
Dex: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

feats 7= 5 (for lvl 8) 1 (human) 1 (toughness from class)

Armor proficiency: Chain
Armor proficiency: Scale
Armor proficiency: Plate
Ritual casting
Toughness (ranger feature)
Multiclass barbarian
Weapon Proficiency: Triple-headed flail

Hitpoints: 68 = 12 (class) + 16 (con) + 35 (5 per level) + 5 (toughness)

Skills trained: 7 = 5 (class) 1 (human) 1 (Multi-class)

Arcana (background makes it a class skill)
Dungeoneering
Endurance
Insight
Intimidate (barbarian MC)
Nature
Perception

Important items
Cinture of the Dragon spirit (use str in place of cha for intimidate)
+2 dwarven plate armor (daily power to regain hitpoints like a healing surge)
+2 amulet of protection
when I can afford it Battlestrider greaves

Defenses would now be

AC 24= 14 + 10 (armor)
Fort 22= 14 + 4 (ability) 1 (class) 1 (human) 2 (amulet)
Ref 20= 14 + 2 (ability) 1 (class) 1 (human) 2 (amulet)
Will 19= 14 + 2 (ability) 1 (human) 2 (amulet)

Not entirely an optimized character, but it works. Ill take the Pathfinder Paragon path to get 2 more healing surges and increase mobility a bit.

Any faults or ideas pointed out would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks once again to you guys for the advice.

 

[Elric]

Abilities

Str: 18 (human +2)
Con: 16
Dex: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

Too low! With 24 points, you can start with 18, 15, 13, 10, 14, 8. So you can be up to 20, 16, 14, 10, 14, 8 by now.

Important items
Cinture of the Dragon spirit (use str in place of cha for intimidate)
+2 dwarven plate armor (daily power to regain hitpoints like a healing surge)
+2 amulet of protection
when I can afford it Battlestrider greaves

Defenses would now be

AC 24= 14 + 10 (armor)

You should get a Masterwork Plate Armor, Layered Plate, for an additional +1 AC bonus (pg 199, PH II)

 

[Flipguarder]

Too low! With 24 points, you can start with 18, 15, 13, 10, 14, 8. So you can be up to 20, 16, 14, 10, 14, 8 by now.

You should get a Masterwork Plate Armor, Layered Plate, for an additional +1 AC bonus (pg 199, PH II)

lol, yeah should have mentioned my dm corrected me. We are functioning using the 22 pt system in the phb

For some reason I had assumed only paragon path level armor or characters could pick up layered plate. And Godplate was only usable by epic level.

Ill check that out, thanks

 

[Elric]

lol, yeah should have mentioned my dm corrected me. We are functioning using the 22 pt system in the phb.

It's still too low on 22 point buy Start at 18, 14, 13, 10, 14, 8, then you can get, say, 19, 16, 10, 14, 8 rather than what you have listed. Edit- that was just one example- I'd recommend 20 Str and 15 Con instead of 19/16.

 

[Flipguarder]

Crimeny, I can't believe that. Im usually so good at math. Ill go with 20/15

thanks...... again.

 

[Dan'L]

Okay, so I know I'm late to the table with this, but I thought I'd throw out this build as a counter-point to the one that Flipguarder has settled on, and to second the idea of using a Fighter as the base class. I've left the choice of magic items the same, for ease of comparison. I'll discuss the differences after the build:


lvl 8 Human Fighter MC: Ranger
Background: Scholar


Abilities

Str: 18 (human +2)
Con: 14
Dex: 15
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

feats 6= 5 (for lvl 8) 1 (human)

Armor proficiency: Plate
Ritual casting
Multiclass Ranger: Two-Blade Warrior
Weapon Proficiency: Triple-headed flail
Two-weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense

Hitpoints: 71 = 15 (class) + 14 (con) + 42 (6 per level)
Healing Surges: 11 = 9(class) + 2 (con)

Skills trained: 5 = 3 (class) 1 (human) 1 (Multi-class)

Arcana (background makes it a class skill)
Athletics
Endurance
Intimidate
Perception (ranger MC)

Important items
Cinture of the Dragon spirit (use str in place of cha for intimidate)
+2 dwarven plate armor (daily power to regain hitpoints like a healing surge)
+2 amulet of protection
when I can afford it Battlestrider greaves

Defenses would now be

AC 26= 14 + 11 (armor) 1(feat)
Fort 24= 14 + 5 (ability) 2 (class) 1 (human) 2 (amulet)
Ref 20= 14 + 2 (ability) 1 (feat) 1 (human) 2 (amulet)
Will 19= 14 + 2 (ability) 1 (human) 2 (amulet)

A lot depends, of course, on power choices as well. Just for clarity, I've gone with:

At-Wills:
-Dual Strike
-Crushing Surge (gain temp HP!)
-Cleave

Encounters:
-Funneling Fury
-Rain of Blows
-Come and Get It

Dailies:
-Tempest Dance
-Rain of Steel

Utilities:
-Unstoppable
-Unbreakable

*****

Okay, so now the pros & cons:

cons:
- fewer skills
- fewer power choices that specifically require wielding two weapons
- slightly lower Con score to bump up Dex for best use of Rain of Blows (but worth it, IMO!)

pros:
-higher AC & Fort
-higher Hit Points & more Healing Surges
-higher to-hit for attacks
-better variety of At-Will attacks to choose from
-access to some good defensive utilities & self-healing powers

Additional notes/thoughts:

-this build essentially has two more feats to play with over the Ranger one, since it doesn't require so many to reach Plate proficiency. Feel free to consider other options over the 2-weapon fighting & defense that I've shown here, just remember that this will reduce AC & Reflex defenses & cost a smidgen of damage.

-I know power selection is something you seemed concerned about. If the fighter based options seem overly constrictive, swap out the 2-weapon fighting & defense for Novice &/or Acolyte feats to grab an encounter & utility from the Ranger options

-other alternatives to the 2-weapon feats include Weapon Focus for all-around extra damage; Weapon Proficiency for even better to-hit; Skill Focus on Intimidate; Toughness; Durability; Human Perseverance; Action Surge

-I swapped the 15/14 between Con & Dex to get Rain of Blows & to keep on track for the 19 Dex required for Flail Mastery at Epic, but beyond these two concerns I don't see any reason it couldn't be 15 Con/14 Dex

-The ugliness that is Come & Get It/Rain of Steel/Combat Challenge deserves a moment of consideration

That's it for now!
-Dan'L

 

[Flipguarder]

I understand the reasoning with the fighter build.

My problem is that people who dual wield as fighters make seriously 0 sense. It has utterly 0 benefit (at this point at least) and you could bump up a damage dice (not to mention other properties like high crit/brutal) by taking an honest to goodness 2 handed weapon.


In short this is a good build for my idea. But my idea is terrible for this build. Does that make sense?

From what Im reading in the phb right now, none of the fighters abilities at my level allow for offhand attacks. So raw I would be literally never swinging with my offhand flail, it just makes no sense.

It is a great build though, I would just switch dual wielding flails for either a Mordenkrad or Execution axe.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, to be honest, your criteria don't leave much wiggle room for min-maxing. We're trying to get as much of your concept to work as possible, not trying to push the damage envelope.

Besides, it's a DM character. It's -not- a good idea to hotrod a DM character.

 

[Dan'L]

I understand the reasoning with the fighter build.

My problem is that people who dual wield as fighters make seriously 0 sense. It has utterly 0 benefit (at this point at least) and you could bump up a damage dice (not to mention other properties like high crit/brutal) by taking an honest to goodness 2 handed weapon.


In short this is a good build for my idea. But my idea is terrible for this build. Does that make sense?

From what Im reading in the phb right now, none of the fighters abilities at my level allow for offhand attacks. So raw I would be literally never swinging with my offhand flail, it just makes no sense.

Okay, in turn:
- I'm not sure what you mean that there is 0 benefit to the fighter build. I was actually considering this core build myself (fighter MC 2-blade master) as an idea that could lead to the Martial Archetype epic destiny. I know that it is a marginally less damage-dealing build than a straight tempest fighter, but it seems better IMO to a straight melee ranger. What particular problems do you see?

- Well, since we were addressing a good build for your idea, naturally I didn't much give a flying fig if it was the best fighter build.

- Any attack can be made with either your main or your offhand weapon. There is no penalty for it, and you decide when you roll the attack which you are using. Some attack powers REQUIRE you to specifically use your main or your offhand weapon for the attack (such as Dual/Twin Strike) or a specific portion of the attack (such as Sudden Strike). Other attack powers may offer you the opportunity for multiple attacks, but not specify which weapon is used for which attack roll (such as Rain of Blows). In these cases, you should be able to alternate between main & offhand to your heart's content -- it'd be a hard-hearted DM who said you couldn't, especially if there's no mechanical difference besides flavor. Yes, you would deal slightly less damage from the off-hand weapon due to 2-weapon fighting feat, but I can't see that from keeping anyone/thing from letting you do it.

Also, Dual Strike is a level 1 Fighter at-will that specifies an off-hand attack. Check Martial Power for more Fighter powers that do the same; since that's where the Tempest build is introduced, that's where you'll find them.

-Dan'L