Templates tend to suck?

[Forrester]

I'll chime in among those who say that +5ECL for an ogre fighter-type is (marginally) too low. No way in hell it's too high. +10 to Str and +4 to Con and +5 natural armor and reach and a 40' move . . . too juicy to pass up for anything less. He can handle the loss of a few feats.

Which is why Poly Other needs to be nerfed in any campaign, or else all the fighters walk around looking like stone giants (i.e., ogres on speed).

 

[Brekki]

I think the ECL is ok at +5, as was obvious from my calculation above.

The ogre does have +10 on str which is actually only a +9 because any other fighter would have put one the stat bonus from four levels in strength anyway.
A +9 to strenght is about a +5 on attack and a +7 on damage. Considering the three point loss in BaB this is only a +2 att / +7 damage. Also considering the very poor BaB and little feats the ogre is far later with getting usefull damage feats like Specialization, Improved Critical, Great Cleave, which in part does away with the bonusses in damage.

Being virtually unable to have any skills with -4 to int and being locked out of any decisionmaking or negotiations with -4 to cha should count for something.

Being large may be an advantage damagewise, and for some spells, if you're talking about equipment it is not pleasant. Everything has to be custom-made, is a lot more expensive, and will probably will not be found in the treasure you loot from the enemies.

btw: he does NOT have 40 ft movement

 

[Spatula]

I think the ECL is ok at +5, as was obvious from my calculation above.

Using Soldarin's ECL calculator, which looks to me like it was reverse engineered from the DMG level adjustments. That is, I believe Soldarin made the calculator assuming that an ogre is +5, so using it to prove the ogre is +5 is pointless.

Being large may be an advantage damagewise, and for some spells, if you're talking about equipment it is not pleasant. Everything has to be custom-made, is a lot more expensive, and will probably will not be found in the treasure you loot from the enemies.

Magic armor resizes itself to fit the wearer. And you are seriously underestimating the advatange of being Large (and very strong) when it comes to melee.

btw: he does NOT have 40 ft movement

Check the MM errata. The ogre in the MM is wearing medium armor, which slows it down to 30, but its natural speed is 40.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The ogre does have +10 on str which is actually only a +9 because any other fighter would have put one the stat bonus from four levels in strength anyway...

Also considering the very poor BaB and little feats the ogre is far later with getting usefull damage feats like Specialization, Improved Critical, Great Cleave, which in part does away with the bonusses in damage.

Being virtually unable to have any skills with -4 to int and being locked out of any decisionmaking or negotiations with -4 to cha should count for something.

I just wanted to chime in that these are very good points.

-4 to Int and Cha have to count for something in even the most hack-and-slash campaign. And the BAB hit is something for which Str can only partially compensate. It's also worth noting that the ogre's near-nonexistent skill points, fewer feats, and lower BAB are going to vastly hinder its ability to acquire PrCs, which IMHO are necessary for the advancement of any serious high-level fighter.

BTW, a 6th-level human fighter has 27 skill points, not 16.

 

[Grog]

Also, there are times when being Large is an advantage, but also times when it could be a disadvantage too.

I'd like to see how a 20th level fighter stacks up against a 15th level ogre fighter. Unfortunately, I don't have time to run the numbers myself.

Btw, would a 15th level ogre fighter get the starting gold for a 20th level character, or only a 15th? That would make a big difference too.

 

[Archer]

The higher the level of the ECL race the better off they are. The 15th level ogre has more hps than then 20th fighter and all the unmatched racial advantages.

 

[Spatula]

The way things generally work out is that ECL races start off weak and get more powerful with time. An ogre PC gets +4 to CON which doesn't quite make up for its lesser hit dice to start, but as it gains levels and it gets more hit dice the bonuses start to add up to the point where it surpasses normal characters with the same starting stats. Or consider this: an 8th level fighter has weapon specialization and improved critical, while a 3rd level ogre fighter PC has neither - but the fighter has run out of core feats to improve his chosen weapon, while the ogre is still improving. Add one more level and the ogre can pick up specialization, and it qualifies for improved critical the level after that.

Also, there are times when being Large is an advantage, but also times when it could be a disadvantage too.

Sure. And there are times where being Small is an advantage, but most of the time it is a disadvantage. Being Large means that you can grapple, bullrush, and sunder much better than normal characters, you can use larger weapons that do more damage, you get an attack of opportunity against almost any smaller foe that wants to hit you in melee, you can hit Large foes in melee without suffering an AoO, etc.

Btw, would a 15th level ogre fighter get the starting gold for a 20th level character, or only a 15th? That would make a big difference too.

Going by the latest system, the ogre would have equipment as a 20th level character.

 

[Forrester]

Being Large means that you can grapple, bullrush, and sunder much better than normal characters, you can use larger weapons that do more damage, you get an attack of opportunity against almost any smaller foe that wants to hit you in melee, you can hit Large foes in melee without suffering an AoO, etc.

Also, the ogre is also not subject to Hold Person, which is a nice little cookie in and of itself.

If you compared a 10th level fighter with a Ogre/Fighter5 (both equipped as 10th level characters, of course), I think you'd see that the Ogre more than kicks the 10th level fighter's ass. Better armor class, more hit points, more damage per swing . . . it's all there. Yes, the 10th level fighter's additional feats will be nice, but to say that the Ogre will be underpowered is laughable.

Again, though, if the campaign allows for book use of Poly Other, and the 10th leve fighter can walk around as a troll or a hag or, eventually, a stone giant, the Ogre may be getting a bit shafted.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Going by the latest system, the ogre would have equipment as a 20th level character.

Is that true? I considered the level difference in starting gold to be an important contribution to the balancing factor of ECLs. I sure wouldn't want to equip my ECL charcters that way...afterall an ogre character has no need to spend gold on any natural armor items and can focus this gold towards other items.

 

[Xarlen]

Yes, it is. ECL treats the character as that level for XP and GP totals.