A non-boss fight in an RPG should never, and I mean NEVER, last longer than 15 minutes, TOPS!!!
Just MO of course.
Just MO of course.
D&D 4E The 4E combat poll: grind and more!
- Thread starter TerraDave
- Start date
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
I can't say I agree... I'm of the opinion that if it is that short, it wasn't worth running in the first place.
renau1g
First Post
Have them fight minions then...always.
I cannot agree with this either.
Players want to have their PCs shine. They want to save the day, they don't want to slaughter indiscriminately.
They don't want foes to fall like wheat before their swords. They want to be challenged.
This is why the minion rules fail miserably. It's fun the first few times to wipe out some minions, but after that, it's a snooze. It's boring. It's not challenging. My players dislike fighting minions because they have no flavor or depth to them.
There's no give and take in a minion battle. It's just give. There is no "woah, look what that guy did". Instead it's "bang, you're dead ... Next".
I think the designers got confused between "what is fun to watch in some genres" and "what is fun for players". Watching Bruce Lee kick a bunch of minion butt on the big screen is fun for the viewers. But, what's to say that it's fun for the hero? Just because watching minions get smacked on TV can be fun doesn't mean that it's as much fun in the game. Sure, some people can have fun killing minions, but most people I've game with find it meh. Minions are about as exciting as terrain.
Ditto for 15 minute encounters. With the current rules, that's a 1+ round encounter. Even if the game was sped up a lot, it would still only be 2 rounds. The encounter is over before the players can have a good chance to shine.
Storminator
First Post
I could use slightly fewer conditions. I'd like to see the conditions end in a more uniform manner, and to see less stacking.
I'd like to see some simplifications. Fighter's marking attack being different yet soooo similar to an OA is unforgivable.
The limit on number of daily magic items is too low. It should be 3 in heroic tier, and scale from there.
Pretty minor complaints. Best edition so far.
PS
I'd like to see some simplifications. Fighter's marking attack being different yet soooo similar to an OA is unforgivable.
The limit on number of daily magic items is too low. It should be 3 in heroic tier, and scale from there.
Pretty minor complaints. Best edition so far.
PS
Mephistopheles
First Post
I feel the same way about minions for a couple of reasons.
The first is that they're anticlimactic. The players see a large number of enemies and rub their hands together in anticipation of a tactical challenge. Then someone drops an area attack to hinder the enemy getting themselves into position only to find that a bunch of them drop dead from the small amount of damage the attack did. "Oh, okay" the players say, and then they lay down a few more area attacks to clear out the minions so they can get on with fighting the smaller number of real enemies.
The second is that, after a few encounters like the one above, the minion metagame sets in. The players see a large number of enemies but are not particularly excited by this as they assume a bunch of them are minions. They drop some area attacks to separate the wheat from the chaff, and then get on with fighting the real enemies.
Admittedly the DM could mix things up a bit by having encounters where things that players expect to be minions are not minions, but that just adds another layer to the minion metagame rather than eliminating it.
There may be ways that minions can be used that are satisfying but I haven't yet experienced such an encounter.
renau1g
First Post
Reminds me of my very first adventure DM'ing for 4e. We ran across 15 or so kobolds... we were freakin' out as they ambushed us and retreat was likely not a option as they had encircled us. Our wizard dropped a daily as did our rogue (blinding barrage maybe?) and most of the enemies were dead.
We all looked at each other and were like WTF? Really? I thought 4e was supposed to be challenging...
Yeah, minions aren't very useful, except perhaps ranged ones that spread out and chip in some minor damage as the melee monsters battle the heroes. However, you'd almost always be better off with 1 standard artillery instead. Typically, I'll use them either as an XP bump for the PCs.
Gort
Explorer
The trouble with minions is that they're very dependent on the powers your party have. Auto-damage stuff like Rain of Steel or just area attacks in general will utterly destroy them, but parties without may find their damage output overwhelming - their attack bonuses tend to be pretty good, and those 10 damage whacks tend to add up fast.
Of course, it sucks to die to guys who are dropped by a single hit, so that outcome is irritating as well.
Of course, it sucks to die to guys who are dropped by a single hit, so that outcome is irritating as well.
Preferable to you as DM, but is it preferable to the players?
You should ask them. Games are meant to be fun. Are minions fun for the players, or just another minor speed bump towards the end of the encounter?
The entire purpose of minions from what WotC first said was to have cannon fodder that was easy for the DM to run. Easy for the DM to run does not necessarily equate to fun for the players.
Note: As a player, I enjoy "saving the day". The best part of the game is when it's the bottom of the ninth, two outs, one man on base, and I hit the home run that prevents the Fighter and the Rogue from both going unconscious. That never happens with minions.
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