D&D 4E The 4E Rogue...love it or hate it?

[Nahat Anoj]

So when WotC posts sample "builds" and makes sure to say they are optional, some people cry foul. I'd be interested to hear what those people think when heroic paths - which are exactly the same thing as builds - are released for a game like True20. Most people consider them to be a clever bit of engineering.

I have nothing against games like True20. There's just a strange potential for irony.

 

[kennew142]

On the whole, I liked the write up, but it did contain a few surprises. Static HP per level was an eyebrow raiser. I understand it as it seems common knowledge that damage output has been scaled back, but I did like +CON in 3.X. Lower Sneak Attack damage was disappointing, but then again my favorite base class was the Rogue and I liked causing the uber-death-to-my-enemies attack in the surprise round.

Even with these two nerfs, I think that I will still like the Rogue as it will become more balanced with some of the other classes.

Kahoots

I like the static hit points. In 3e constitution had too much influence on hit points. This would have made sense if D&D used hit points solely as a measure of physical toughness. But since hit points have never been defined that way in D&D, the 4e model makes much more sense. At lower levels, where hit points are derived primarily from physical toughness, Constitution has a much larger effect than in earlier editions. As the character gains experience, hit points become more and more a measure of skill, luck and combat prowess. For the first time in the history of D&D, the mechanics of hit points may reflect their flavor text.

 

[Kahoots]

I also noticed an undescribed feat called Backstabber. I wonder what it does. Also the tumble power allows the character to shift a number of spaces equal to 1/2 his speed. Isn't shift the new terminology for 5' step?

My assumption for Backstabber was that it'll give a bonus to Sneak Attacks - either in attack bonus or damage bonus. Possibly both.

Yeah, shifting is equivalent of a 5 ft step. So, if you base speed is 30 ft a round, you can take a free 15 ft step. Not too bad on the whole. (Then I have evil thoughts of a high level 3.x Monk with this ability... shifts 40 ft. Eek.)

 

[Silvergriffon]

I like the static hit points. In 3e constitution had too much influence on hit points. This would have made sense if D&D used hit points solely as a measure of physical toughness. But since hit points have never been defined that way in D&D, the 4e model makes much more sense. At lower levels, where hit points are derived primarily from physical toughness, Constitution has a much larger effect than in earlier editions. As the character gains experience, hit points become more and more a measure of skill, luck and combat prowess. For the first time in the history of D&D, the mechanics of hit points may reflect their flavor text.

Aye!

Well said.

 

[Kahoots]

I like the static hit points. <snip>

The more that I think about static HP per level, the more I actually like it. I've DMed more than my fair share of games with a number of min/maxers and this will definitely keep them more in check.

It also makes the Toughness feat that much more powerful.

 

[WyzardWhately]

It left me singularly unimpressed. The various powers and class abilities have convinced me that 4E combat is probably a blast - I mean, I'm sold on that. I am sure that breaking out the minis and throwing down is even more fun than the other map-and-mini based skirmish games I've played before. I expect I would enjoy that part of 4E.

However, I play roleplaying games instead of those games for the noncombat elements. I see that WotC has stripped those out of the writeup, and I know that's intentional. Social combat, skill challenges, exploration, and other things that don't happen on a battlefield are what's going to make or break 4E for me, and since they have seen fit to conceal those elements...*shrug* I must continue to reserve judgment.

 

[Mercule]

You seem to be confusing builds with the rogue options.

Fair enough. It'll take some time to get used to the new terminology.

Even so, the builds line up extremely nicely with the options. I guess the nutshell of my issue is that, while it's possible to choose powers and options that don't line up with the builds, the appears to be a statistical encouragement to align in a certain way -- failure to do so could result in a substantially underpowered character.

Again, caveat: I'm holding out hope that the full set of rules disproves my concern.

 

[Kahoots]

Even so, the builds line up extremely nicely with the options. I guess the nutshell of my issue is that, while it's possible to choose powers and options that don't line up with the builds, the appears to be a statistical encouragement to align in a certain way -- failure to do so could result in a substantially underpowered character.

I am hoping that I am right in another assumption anout Rogue Powers. Although WOTC is suggesting two primary builds, they should give a laundry list of Powers that can be piece mealed into that build. So, one Rogue with a certain build will look very different from another Rogue with the same theoretical build. Then again, I'm sure that the first Rogue Splatbook will achieve this anyway.

I see what you are getting at about wanting to mesh the two builds together... or possibly going in a different third direction. My gut says that the Core books might not get us there, but the followup books will. *crossing my fingers anyway*

 

[fafhrd]

While reviewing the powers, I immediately thought of Kalam Mekhar from the Malazan books, and that's a good thing.

 

[Mercule]

I see what you are getting at about wanting to mesh the two builds together... or possibly going in a different third direction. My gut says that the Core books might not get us there, but the followup books will. *crossing my fingers anyway*

One of my favorite 3E characters was a rogue/acrobat. He had the highest strength in the group (the main fighter was a duelist), but he definitely did his share of dex-related goodness. Often, he was the decoy for setting up other PC attacks. He also frequently tumbled in behind monsters to grant flanking or maneuvered himself to bull-rush tricky opponents into better positions.

While reading the brief on the 4E rogue and looking at the presented powers, it would be hard to build the character without playing cross-"option" on half his powers. Depending on what other choices are in the PHB, that could turn a stellar character into an ineffective one in no time.