Level Up (A5E) The Advanced Fighter

[Quartz]

This is a redo of the Champion, right? I'm impressed. However...

The Fighter needs abilities apart from the ASI at levels 4, 8, and so on, because the other classes get abilities (typically spells and spell progression) at those levels. Why not move Warrior's Grit to those levels? See also Action Surge and Second Wind.

Similarly, an additional ability are needed at the 5th level because the other combat classes get additional bennies at that level. How about Indomitable 1 / short rest?

I don't like Action Surge being moved to a Long Rest basis. Keep it as a Short Rest feature. And basing it off Proficiency Bonus means it's too good if you allow multi-classing.

Similarly Second Wind should be on a Short Rest basis and is a bit anaemic. I would change it to 1d10 + double your Fighter level once per Short Rest. And twice at later levels.

Too many Fighting Styles. How about limiting them 3 but giving enhanced benefits at later levels?

Not a fan of Final Blow. How do you know if an enemy has fewer than 100 HP? And 'dies automatically' rather than 'is reduced to 0 HP'?

The fighter is my favorite class, I love the fiction about them, but the class is inherently dull.

The Fighter is inferior to all other classes, save possibly the Monk.

 

[CapnZapp]

No matter what WotC is saying, 5E in particular and D&D in general is designed with the following "pillar weights" in mind:

Combat 75%
Explore 12,5%
Social 12,5%

Every D&D class is geared towards combat. Every D&D class is first and foremost combat capable.

Therefore it stands to reason that a class that is focused on Combat like the Fighter is needs only token support for either of the two other pillars. And conversely, a class with huge support for another pillar should pay a very small price in combat reduction.

While there are a lot of great ideas in these threads, they create a different game than 5E, and thus aren't appropriate for the Level Up project.

I believe the core focus of Level Up should be strictly on
1) crunchifying the level-up experience
2) polishing the 5E content (basically, improving the bottom third of its spells, subclasses, etc creating many more good choices and far fewer obvious duds)
3) drastically improve upon the original Monster Manual

Most other goals will only be divisive, and mark the product as yet another niche offering. That's far from becoming the go-to value adding product for nearly every crunch-starved 5E gamer that would ensure EN Publishing's place in the spot Paizo held during the 4E era.

These other goals remain worthy. But they need to be published elsewhere. This is not the place where 5E is redefined. (And to be honest, I believe only WotC can do that)

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

The Fighter needs abilities apart from the ASI at levels 4, 8, and so on, because the other classes get abilities (typically spells and spell progression) at those levels. Why not move Warrior's Grit to those levels? See also Action Surge and Second Wind.

I'm not sure where you get that from: rangers and paladins do not gain other features nor spells at ASI levels, same for barbarians and rogues, the monk does gain slow fall at four at the same time as an ASI, but that the only time in its progression.

Similarly, an additional ability are needed at the 5th level because the other combat classes get additional bennies at that level. How about Indomitable 1 / short rest?

Agreed.

I don't like Action Surge being moved to a Long Rest basis. Keep it as a Short Rest feature. And basing it off Proficiency Bonus means it's too good if you allow multi-classing.

Similarly Second Wind should be on a Short Rest basis and is a bit anaemic. I would change it to 1d10 + double your Fighter level once per Short Rest. And twice at later levels.

I moved them to long rest because 1-hour short rest if narrative-ly hard to justify and unreliable. If the short rests where 15 minutes or somehow guaranteed to have at least 2 occurrences per long rest I would change them back.

Too many Fighting Styles. How about limiting them 3 but giving enhanced benefits at later levels?

Since the FS now cover more than fighting (I know, I know) and the list is longer, its important to have more picks: restrain them too much and all players will only take the combat ones, instead of taking a few combat mixed with the one for other pillars.

Not a fan of Final Blow. How do you know if an enemy has fewer than 100 HP? And 'dies automatically' rather than 'is reduced to 0 HP'?

You dont, its a gamble. Its more of less 1 casting of Power word: kill, once per day. But, contrary to the spell, you can trigger it as part of an attack sequence (so ideally after you hit the creature 2-3 times) instead of being 1 action, all or nothing.

This also mixes well with lore checks and features that let you ''scan'' an enemy like Inquisitive, Battlemaster or Monster Slayer gains.

 

[Quartz]

I'm not sure where you get that from: rangers and paladins do not gain other features nor spells at ASI levels,

That's not correct. Both Ranger and Paladin gain extra spells at 19th level. The Ranger gains an extra spell known at 12th level. The Barbarian gets an extra Rage at 12th level and extra Rage damage at 16th level. And both Paladin and Ranger gain spell progression at all ASI levels - a step towards higher level spells.

I moved them to long rest because 1-hour short rest if narrative-ly hard to justify and unreliable.

That's on the DM. Having them on a Long Rest basis also makes it more likely they'll be saved for the boss fight. And do remember that these abilities have uses out of combat.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

That's on the DM

No. The choice to rest or not is on the player. Its not the duty of the DM to give rest to players.

Occurrence where the players can take a hour break but not a full rest in a dungeon or wilderness are rare, unless they are on a timer, or the DM give them a break for just that time. If you are the only short rest class in your group, you'll then have to negotiate to take that 1 hour break, because you'll be the only one who's out of button to press: the long-rest class (unless they nova'd the hell out of eveything) will probably want to push on, because their resources will still be mostly un-tapped and wont gain much from that short rest.

Having more of them, but taking longer to replenish them is the same thing. If the player keep them all in case of boss fight, that's okay. If they pace it differently to use them in other encounters, that also okay. That the choice of the player to make.

Having 2 types of recoveries is okay, if all classes can benefit from both, having both short and long rest resources. That was a good idea of 4e (maybe pushing it a little too far, but still), making sure every player could regain something after a short break.

 

[Stalker0]

So on combat reflexes, if I’m understanding it right, it actually works just like legendary actions, and since that is already a known mechanic you could use it.

Legendary Reflexes

You gain 1 legendary action that you can use for the following:

1) don a shield (1 action)
2) drink a potion (1 action)
3) ready a weapon (1 action)

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

So on combat reflexes, if I’m understanding it right, it actually works just like legendary actions, and since that is already a known mechanic you could use it.

Legendary Reflexes

You gain 1 legendary action that you can use for the following:

1) don a shield (1 action)
2) drink a potion (1 action)
3) ready a weapon (1 action)

Could be.

For now its only what it says on the can: 1 more reaction per round to spend on attack of oppotunity and other features. You are right though that I did not put a trigger for the drink a potion/don a shield.

I think giving the fighter 1 Legendary action would be a better idea, like you said. You could also replace Indomitable with Legendary Resistance x/day.

 

[rules.mechanic]

Reactions
I liked the Legendary Actions idea but then wondered if it can be justified as exclusive to Fighters. Reactions feel "fairer", especially if simply tied to number of attacks, giving the Fighter a strong reason to have more. For every Extra Attack, you get an Extra Reaction. Reactions then become a currency for a range of martial classes' combat buffs such as the Riposte and Parry Maneuvers.

Martial Expertise
A neat addition could be a weapon Expertise (probably choose 2 weapon types, including shield or unarmed) that martial classes access. Much like skill Expertise, this is about an additional proficiency bonus but here they are Reaction-dependent and compete with Reaction-dependent Maneuvers to give players choices to make and allow some extra combat tactics crunch:

1) When you are wielding a weapon with which you have expertise and hit another creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can use a reaction to add your proficiency bonus to the damage for that attack.

2) When you are wielding a weapon or shield with which you have expertise and another creature attacks you with a melee, ranged or spell attack, you can use a reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack.

Weapon Expertise could work without the mechanic of Extra Reactions but would then need to look different. Probably making you choose between using your only Reaction to: A) add your PB to one attack roll, or B) add double your PB to one damage roll, or c) add you PB to AC (once) if hit by an attack (potentially causing the attack to then miss).

Grit/Hit Dice
I also liked the mechanic of Grit Dice but wondered if there might be a viable way to link the resource to Hit Dice? Gives it a gritty fighter aesthetic. I feel that there is some consensus in these discussion in expanding Battle Master Maneuvers to give all fighters and perhaps other martial classes more interesting options in combat. If so, all fighters will have Superiority Dice and maybe the gritty fighter could use these instead of Grit Dice but also access their Hit Dice. Feels only right to then call that feature Maximum Effort...

 

[Phoebasss]

Exactly. Its quite rare in my games where the party has 1 hours of safe rest but wouldnt be able to take a long rest. The only I see it is in time sensitive situations, but again this is DM dependent, which I dont like all that much. I prefer the players manage their power expenditure/recovery by themselves.

I recognize it would require some small rebalancing, but leaving combat or breaking initiative or however you want to describe it should be a short rest. Any amount of time out of combat is sufficient to let you catch your breath and regroup. This would require the game to be balanced around having short rests between every combat, but I like that better than putting every class on long rests. Because I think fighters shouldn't need as much effort to recover their abilities as casters.

 

[Phoebasss]

How are other classes any better at exploration or social?

There are two things which change how good you are at the social pillar in 5e. Charisma score, and skills. So anyone who gets more of one of those is better at the social pillar than the average class. So, the Cha classes obviously qualify, but a rogue built a certain way will also qualify. Obviously spells can also allow you to interact on the social pillar, but usually only in limited ways. Except suggestion, that spell is bonkers.