D&D General The Art and the Artist: Discussing Problematic Issues in D&D

No, I saw what you did, but if you have to go to that effort to clear things up, when the words never needed to be changed going from one post to the next in the first place?

Sorry, but I've grown tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt when there are dozens of examples of people not arguing in good faith on the daily.

Context, changed. Overlook != Support.

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Your screenshot left out an essential post in the conversation. You've eliminated the context. That's the problem you're concerned about. Perhaps you don't want to contribute to it? CL didn't change the words. CL used the same words that were in the original post, that you didn't include in your screenshot. You're reacting to MS's response and the comments that followed without taking that original post into account. You're taking it out of context.
 
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Your screenshot left out an essential post in the conversation. You've eliminated the context. That's the problem you're concerned about. Perhaps you don't want to contribute to it? CL didn't change the words. CL used the same words that were in the original post, that you didn't include in your screenshot. You're reacting to MS's response and the comments that followed without taking that original post account. You're taking it out of context.
OK, then I'm wrong, and I apologize to @Crimson Longinus for my misunderstanding.
 


None of us have the power to "fix racism". If we did, we would. We don't. Just because there are larger problems (systematic racism in the USA), that doesn't mean that things you percieve to be lesser problems aren't actually problems or aren't worth addressing.

Just because there are starving children in Africa, that doesn't mean that someone else that isn't starving breaking a bone isn't a problem.
And also discussions within the hobby have been motivated by some very concrete issues major companies have in hiring, paying, and listening to their employees.
 

And also discussions within the hobby have been motivated by some very concrete issues major companies have in hiring, paying, and listening to their employees.
The situation you linked to there specifically is why the recent comments about how they (Wizards) paraphrased 'we have wanted to make these changes for some time' fall flat to me, to say the least.
 

Just because we have bigger problems doesn't mean we're going to sweat the small stuff or that we need white folks to find it for us. The D&D racism issue has been clear to us for decades, just like now people try to mitigate it or sweep our objections under the carpet. The difference is WotC is listening to us now and people are Real Mad.

I think the problem I have with these statements is it is something of a straw man. People aren’t mad that WOTC is listening to people about racism, they are mad for a variety of reasons. I think most are concerned that there is a narrative gaining force in the hobby that not everyone agrees is true, and it is become a force of considerable change to the game and to gaming culture. Now if you think the narrative is true, I can see why you would be pleased. But if you think the narrative is flawed, missing vital nuance, or a simplification, I think people should also understand why some may be displeased. The other issue I think is more about concerns over censorship and wiping away works from the past. That is also complicated, and I don’t think it is easily reduced to team A are the good guys, team B are the bad guys. It is often going to boil down to what conclusions people reach about the different arguments, how they analyze the media content in question and what principles they are prioritizing.
 


I'm afraid I have some bad news for you. If you look at Gyagaxian D&D modules like Keep On The Borderlands they are very much a fantasy Western. In most of the classic variations the white settlers move in pushing the native inhabitants out and wiping them out. And then when the Native Americans strike back the hero "protects" the settlers from the people they are driving out. There are plenty of non-racist Westerns out there, but there's deep seated racism in the genre.

Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old addage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide
:lol:

The adage about "nits make lice" was probably most famously uttered by Col. John Chivington of the Sand Creek Massacre when he said "Damn any man who sympathizes with Indians! ... I have come to kill Indians, and believe it is right and honorable to use any means under God's heaven to kill Indians. ... Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice." Although it dates at least to the late 17th Century to justify ethnic war crimes in Ireland which is hardly an improvement.
Yes but it’s a story, not an advocation to go out and kill Native Americans or discriminate against them. The same story is also the story for fae in Ireland for example, having a different slant or other stories of human encroachment into territories which are stories about civilization’s advance. You can find the story in every culture, not just in Europeans vs Native Americans but even in tribal conflicts and the conflict over resources. So it’s a Western. Cool. The intent of the story is not prejudiced. He’s not targeting Cherokee peoples. It’s not like it’s Boot Hill.
 



I haven't been following this particular debate before. So I googled it, found two articles with rather different perspectives, and I must say, I'm confused:

What's clear to me
  • Yes, there is a problem (=a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome)
  • With more and more people concerned, the magnitude of the problem is not something to just dismiss or pretend it will go away
  • The writing on the wall is pretty clear, things have changed and will continue to change.
  • This makes sense to me: "Once you can understand what is problematic, you are in a much better place to decide if there are still parts of the work you can enjoy, or whether the knowledge changes your whole feeling about something,” from Before Jon Stewart took on antisemitic goblins, critics called out J.R.R. Tolkien’s orcs and dwarves for racial stereotypes
What leaves me confused
Either we're adults about this, and navigate subjective problems like any other grownup issue, or it's an objective problem in which case some sort of objective data is going to like really help a lot.
 

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