The Batman Thread

[Chun-tzu]

s/Lash I believe is the closest to how I feel about batman as well.....

I just cannot see batman as epic...I dont see him going toe to toe with a great wyrm and handing it it's butt on a plate.

Epic characters aren't superhuman. Any epic-level Paladin or Fighter will still need magic weapons to stand a chance against a great wyrm.

Give Batman the tools he needs, and he can take down anyone or anything. Just a few months ago, he held his own against a mind-controlled Superman in the Batman comic.

Batman isn't a D&D character, and was never meant to be. If you drop him straight into a game, he's a game breaker, just like almost ANY super-hero. He'd need to be converted to the game world, to fit into the proper role.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Wis 8 - Lets face it, the guy has no common sense. If he needs a partner, why in the world would he repeatedly make them kids? What ever happened to ensuring the safety of children rather than helping to endanger them? And then to take on another Robin after the death of Jason Todd?? WTF???

Batman has amazing will power (as many super-heroes do), and he has a great deal of common sense. It's apparent you haven't read the comics where Tim Drake becomes Robin.

Batman never wanted another Robin. After Jason's death, he became increasingly violent and reckless. Tim Drake came along, a teen prodigy who actually figured out Batman's secret identity. He came to Nightwing, and told him that he had to become Batman's partner again. Nightwing refused, and seeing the potential in Tim, he began training him. Batman refused to take another Robin, but Tim eventually convinced him otherwise.

In the world of DC Comics, there are dozens of super-powered teens running around fighting crime and saving the world. The new Robin is more capable than any of them (which is why he leads the Teen Titans, formerly Young Justice).

 

[Darrin Drader]

It's apparent you haven't read the comics where Tim Drake becomes Robin.

Actually I have, and it helps to prove my point, as do you.

Batman never wanted another Robin. After Jason's death, he became increasingly violent and reckless.

So without someone to watch over and balance out his obsessive/compulsive personality, he becomes violent and reckless. And this isn't a symptom of a low Wisdom?

Tim Drake came along, a teen prodigy who actually figured out Batman's secret identity. He came to Nightwing, and told him that he had to become Batman's partner again. Nightwing refused, and seeing the potential in Tim, he began training him. Batman refused to take another Robin, but Tim eventually convinced him otherwise.

Which shows that Batman was Inteligent enough to realize the folly in letting Tim join him, but his judgment, being impaired by such a low Wisdom score, failed him again, and he actually let Tim onto the team.

 

[LGodamus]

Epic characters aren't superhuman. Any epic-level Paladin or Fighter will still need magic weapons to stand a chance against a great wyrm.

Give Batman the tools he needs, and he can take down anyone or anything. Just a few months ago, he held his own against a mind-controlled Superman in the Batman comic.

Batman isn't a D&D character, and was never meant to be. If you drop him straight into a game, he's a game breaker, just like almost ANY super-hero. He'd need to be converted to the game world, to fit into the proper role.

I disagree a put a 30 th level fighter or whatever..vs. a great wyrm white..the fighter just has a regular master work sword shield ..armor and bow.... he will win easily over the dragon.....

batman wins vs. superman and other superpowered guys by his guile not because he is higher level than them

 

[Chun-tzu]

So without someone to watch over, he becomes violent and reckless. And this isn't a symptom of a low Wisdom?

Everyone has emotional reactions. Batman didn't go psycho, he was punishing himself and some bad guys over Jason's death. Has nothing to do with Wisdom.

Which shows that Batman was Inteligent enough to realize the folly in letting Tim join him, but his judgment, being impaired by such a low Wisdom score, failed him again, and he actually let Tim onto the team.

In D&D, Wisdom has nothing to do with judgement. The PHB states that "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition." Your argument is that his judgement is flawed, thus he must have a low Wisdom score. So it's a question of common sense, then.

Given the excessive number of precautions Batman put on him in his early years, I'd say his common sense is fine. Bulletproof costume. Very protective guidelines on how to act, including never messing with armed criminals. By your definition, of course, Alfred and Nightwing would also have extremely poor Wisdom scores. And so do all the X-Men, who allowed their young proteges to face life-threatening situations.

 

[Darrin Drader]

batman wins vs. superman and other superpowered guys by his guile not because he is higher level than them

Your denial that Batman is an epic level character completely ignores the half century worth of adventures that we've all witnessed. He would have to be epic by virtue of XP alone!

 

[Darrin Drader]

Given the excessive number of precautions Batman put on him in his early years, I'd say his common sense is fine. Bulletproof costume. Very protective guidelines on how to act, including never messing with armed criminals.

Bulletproof costumes and strict guidelines on behavior do not make him wise. They make him Intelligent. He knows that by taking these measures he'll be less likely to get killed or run afoul of the authorities.

 

[Squire James]

If we really want some interesting discussion about Batman's stats, I think we need to set a standard for level and ability score generation. There is an astounding number of combinations that are quite valid... if one reads the particular issue the guesser is thinking of when he came up with the stats.

For example, say Bats is level 16 and he must be built with an average original score of 15 (total 94 points between 6 abilities, including 4 for level). Some people may consider this a bit low, but let's leave some wiggle room for Superman here! Yeah, statting out Superman is an even bigger can of worms (is this planet-pusher Supes or the one Bats trashed?). Bear with me.

Using these criteria (and the D&D ruleset, since I don't own all the others), I would stat him as follows:

Classes/Levels

By "straight D&D" rules, he'd be something like Rogue 7, Fighter 4, Monk 4. He clearly has many feats and skill points, and no supernatural abilities.

If Batman's DM let him tinker with class abilities a bit, he could be Monk all the way. Trading in all those supernatural abilities (including speed over 50) for some bonus feats shouldn't be too much of a balance issue. The class skills seem about right, though it is also clear that he has several cross-class skills such as Disable Device.

Ability Scores: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 12.

Now to explain the "weaknesses". Biggest weakness first.

Bats is not a "people person". He has lots of money because his daddy had lots of money, not because he was a great salesman or entrepreneur. It should be noted that 12 is NOT bad, easily enough to attract a few ladies once that +10 situational modifier for wealth is added in!

Wisdom is a toughie. On one hand, his willpower is considerable. On the other hand, he is quite capable of making the kind of bonehead decisions that smart-but-unwise people make. I decided to keep his wisdom fairly high, but not terribly so, and say he did as much to improve his Will save as possible. A DM who lets him make his own monk class would help the will save out greatly (a +3 difference).

Finally, there's Strength and Constitution. He is clearly good at both, and the main reason they're not sitting at 18 is because I want to follow my own rules here! So I had to look at my thoughts on the villains he fought to determine what I had to knock down. Bats fights villains that are stronger and/or tougher than him fairly often even if toss out the superhumans (Bane and Killer Croc are still in human range IMO), but he rarely fights anyone who is faster or more intelligent. So Str and Con seem more vulnerable to being cut than Dex or Int.

Alignment? I'm not touching that question with a 10' pole!

 

[Squire James]

Your denial that Batman is an epic level character completely ignores the half century worth of adventures that we've all witnessed. He would have to be epic by vitue of XP alone!

Yeah, but he spent all those XP making magic items!

 

[Chun-tzu]

Bulletproof costumes and strict guidelines on behavior do not make him wise. They make him Intelligent. He knows that by taking these measures he'll be less likely to get killed or run afoul of the authorities.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough. Batman gave Robin a bulletproof costume and forbid him from engaging dangerous opponenets (including anyone with a gun). He made certain that Robin was well prepared for any situations that he was in, and wouldn't allow Robin to take on anything that was too big for him or too dangerous.

Does Robin face dangerous situations? Yes, similar to any police officer. But Robin is better equipped and better trained than any police officer. Robin has flourished as a super-hero, and he's clearly made the world a better place.

It's not at all clear that Batman is deficient in common sense for allowing this.