D&D (2024) The Battle Master Paradigm

[Chaosmancer]

I don't accept that premise...and neither does WotC. Nor do 5e tier lists. In fact, fighter is usually one of the higher ranked classes. Which is why fighters are getting new options but not power buffs, aside from those they will share with other classes via weapon mastery.

When it comes to just DPR, fighters are arguably the S tier class in 5e, and certainly in the top three. That's not where they need help, and buffing their damage would absolutely unbalance the game.

1) Popularity rankings are not power rankings. Fighters are popular because 80% of all fantasy heroes are martials of some flavor or another, not because they are the strongest class in the game.

2) DPR is not the main way to measure power in DnD. It is notable that anyone who does guides for spellcasters always seem to mention that building caster DPR is a waste of their potential, and blaster mages are the weakest way to build a mage.

3) Even if DPR were the main way to measure power in DnD, fighter's are only good at Single Target DPR, the weakest type of DPR, and if you start allowing for AOE DPR, casters are usually doing just as good if not better than fighters. As are paladins, which are half-casters.

4) No one said anything about buffing fighter damage. They talked about buffing the fighter. There are ways other than damage to buff something.

 

[Kannik]

So I suppose the question is, are there any changes to Battlemaster that could be made that would not massively unbalance the subclass? Could higher level battlemasters apply rider effects (not damage) to a second attack in the same turn?

I would give the base class some battlefield options but that don't add to damage (so not using a superiority dice method). Have them cost a bonus action perhaps, to limit it to 1/round. Let the fighter do neat and interesting things to mess up their opponent and shape and reshape the battle.

 

[ccarpent]

So, I know that the fighter survey is done, and it likely won't matter but I was watching the Treantmonk Fighter video (link below) and... I'm a mix between baffled and frustrated about some of the discussion of the Battle Master design. So, I figured I would get it off my chest. Figure many people will disagree with me, but maybe I can at least get people thinking about this differently.


Why is the Battle Master Popular?

So, I don't want to bury the lead too much, but I think there is a point to discuss first. After all, the Battle Master is undeniably popular, so how can I have problems with the design? It likely hit high marks on the survey. Well, I think part of it is that the Battle Master has momentum on its side. Take a look at the Fighter Subclasses, and when they were released.

2014: Battle Master, Eldritch Knight, Champion.

2015: Purple Dragon Knight

2017: Arcane Archer, Cavalier, Samurai

2020: Rune Knight, Psy Warrior

So, when the Battlemaster was released, it was the undisputed best option. The Champion was clearly last place, and the Eldritch knight was just too clunky to meet the gish fantasy, along with the Gish fantasy not being everyone's cup of tea. Purple Dragon Knight didn't do any favors. Arcane Archer was bad. Cavalier was limited, and Samurai was decent, but niche. So, there wasn't any major competition for the Battle Master for anywhere between three and six YEARS. That is a lot of time for everyone to keep repeating "this is the best fighter" and not notice the flaws. I know myself it wasn't until around 2020 that one of the most egregious parts of the Battle Master registered with me.

So, have we always been wrong about the Battlemaster? No, but I think the lack of quality in Fighter subclasses really obscured the problems in the Battlemaster. And that blind-spot persists.

Basic Structure

Okay, so I have an opinion, and there are two major categories to that opinion. And I'm going to start with the biggest issue that plagues the Battlemaster.

Fighter's recieve Five Subclass abilities. Lv 3, Lv 7, Lv 10, lv 15, and lv 18. And I bet many of you know exactly where I am going with this. What are the Battle master abilities?

Lv 3 --> Battlemaster Maneuvers (Pin this for later), Student of War (+1 Skill, +1 Tool)
Lv 7 --> Know your Enemy (this sucks, I'll explain why later)
Lv 10 --> Die step up
Lv 15 --> Relentless (really, really, really good)
Lv 18 --> Die step up

So... what's up with this? Why in the world are TWO of the Battle Master's subclass abilities a basic +1 to a limited resource? People generally agree that a +1 to damage is not a GOOD ability, maybe acceptable at low levels, but as a capstone?! And look to the bard or the Psi Warrior. Both of these have die resources that recharge and can be used for similar abilities to maneuvers, and both get scaling dice FOR FREE. Why does this cost not one, but TWO subclass abilities? Why is this acceptable to people?

Before I get into that, I also want to touch on Know Your Enemy. There is a serious issue with this ability in my opinion, and that is that the fighter can't benefit from it. Right now the ability is a bonus action, once per day, to learn the damage resistances, Immunities, and Vulnerabilities of a creature. So, here is a question, you are a fighter and you use this ability to determine the creature has resistance to fire and vulnerability to lightning. What do you do with this information?

You tell the wizard.

That's it, that's your best use of this ability, because you don't HAVE variable damage types. Sure, MAYBE you are facing a creature that has some vulnerability to B/P/S but not only are those rare, most of them are sub-CR 5, and you get this at level 7.

Well, what if you have a flametongue sword? Then if you have information that the enemy is resistant to fire you can swap weapons, right? Well... no. That'd be stupid of you.

Normal weapon: 1d8+5
Flame Weapon: 1d8+5+1d6 (effective halfing) is still BETTER

Heck, the Flametongue average is 13. Even if you swapped to a Greatsword you will only average 12. It is still better. So you would need to not only use this ability, but also have TWO magical weapons dealing different damage types and the enemy only resist one of them. Now, sure, it is still very useful for the Battlemaster to help the wizard or the druid be more effective... but that also means that this ability is little more than a ribbon. So, we are very potentially looking at the Battlemaster having only TWO subclass abilities that are generally going to be effective.


But Maneuvers Are Really Good

Well... are they? See, this was another thing I noted in Treantmonk's video. It was actually the thing that really got me chewing on this post. He goes through the manuevers, and he talks about how useful they are. In the playtest doc, there are a total of 20 manuevers. At one point he is talking about how Manuever design is poorly balanced, and he lists a number of manuevers he's never seen people take in fifty different builds. Add in his questioning if Trip is obsolete or not, and how many manuevers do you think are on this list?

Eleven.

Over half of all manuevers are in the "I've never seen them taken" camp or otherwise considered a bad choice. Of the Nine left, how many did he have positive things to say about? Four. Precision attack, Menacing Attack, Goading attack (which is a worse version of menacing), and Bait and Switch.

Now, I know. His word isn't law, everyone has their own opinions, but think about this for a moment. We can easily narrow the Battlemaster's ONLY redeeming feature to THREE OPTIONS. Which is everything they learn at 3rd level. Everything after 3rd level is just going down hill. And you are taking entire subclass abilities to simply get a +1 on these manuevers. So... are we really dealing with the peak of Fighter design here? Is this truly THE best option we can aspire to?

Okay, so what do you wanna do about it?

At the end of the day, honestly? My bare minimum is getting actual subclass abilities for levels 10 and 18. I'll accept the crappy level 7 ability, we don't even need to argue about buffing your favorite manuever that is actually under-rated. End of the day, I will accept not having to tell a player that there capstone is to roll a d12 insteand of a d10 when using their limited resource that they can sue for free if they use a d8.

If I was bold?

I'd rebalance manuevers, I'd move Relentless to level 10, and then add level 15 and level 18 abilities, and I have some suggestions from my homebrew. I gave them an ability that allowed them, once per short rest, to allow their allies to move when they roll initiative. Or to have it so enemies cannot have advantage on attacks against them. We could come up with a dozen different things. But I just want something.

And maybe, maybe get people to start wondering if the Battle Master has design issues we can fix.

MY HOUSE RULES

Elimination of the BATTLEMASTER RELENTLESS feature at level 15:

RELENTLESS is meant to make fighters more effective at higher levels. BUT... it UNBALANCES the game and makes Superiority Die and other game features, tactics, strategies and party builds useless or obsolete by turning fighters into invincible blenders, thus encouraging dumb, repetitive and boring full frontal assaults. In a party mix, it is normal for Fighters to be less effective at higher levels. At lower levels, campaign progression relies mostly on fighters with weak spellcasters acting as support, while at higher levels, the reverse is true. This power differential was always naturally built into D&D and is normal. Campaign progression should always rely on a good mix of all available talents such as spying by scouting ahead, planning approaches, negotiating with NPCs and compromising, which forces players to make use of all available talents based on a good balance of character skills, utilitarian spells and alternative strategies.

TRUE, only 4 Superiority die, with only one more at levels 7 and 15, make the Battlemaster an underpowered class as level and campaign progression advance, which I suspect is the reason for the grossly overpowered jump of RELENTLESS at level 15 with it's unlimited use of battle maneuvers that unbalance battle outcomes. To improve the BATTLEMASTER class, while keeping it balanced, I apply the following HOUSE RULES:

Battlemaster Superiority Die:

- Start with four at level 3 and add four more Superiority Dies every 4 levels at levels 7, 11, 15 and 19.

Battlemaster Maneuvers:

• You learn three maneuvers of your choice at level 3 and two more at levels 7, 11, 15 and 19.
• Can only be used once PER TURN, not once per attack.
• You can only use a maneuver ONCE against the SAME opponent.

This prevents the abuse of Maneuvers, such as Parry, by implying that over the course of combat, opponents "wise-up" to the character's tactics and don't get fooled again with the same maneuver. Some opponents may not be very intelligent, but they aren't fools either. This also implies that full frontal combat is ALWAYS a risky proposition, even for high-level Fighters surrounded by 8-10 low CR humanoids. You just can't get out easily from an ill-advised strategy that landed you in such a bad fix by simply going "God mode" and setting your blender to "liquify". This only happens in bad B-movies.

Hit Points recovery:

Short rests: You get NONE. Use Spells, Potions, Herbalism kits, Skills and their associated proficiencies

Long rests: You don't get to regain all HPs on a 8-hour long rest if you were bloodied down to 10% of your HPs, at death's door. That's ludicrous! Roll ONE hit die only, plus a number of hit dice equal to your constitution bonus PER DAY and complete with Spells, Potions, Herbalism kits and skills. You ran out of those ? Use better strategies and tactics ! Manage your downtime with protective spells and skills you had the foresight to select. Choose a safe base of operations (empty and out of the way rooms and areas) protected by Alarm spells, door barring, utilitarian and protective spells. Carpentry skills to bar doors and create traps, Leomund's tiny hut and other hiding strategies, etc. D&D wasn't meant to be played like a first-person shooter video game where you can zip through an entire level by bulldozing your way ahead with unlimited ammo, power-ups and med-kits conveniently placed every ten paces. D&D is a role-playing game...So design it like one and play it like one.

There has to be consequences that will force players to use smarter alternate strategies and tactics and make use of a broader variety of maneuvers and skills; Not always the same ones. After all, a Battlemaster that always uses the same 2-3 moves is not "really" a "Battlemaster" is he. I know players love the Relentless feature because it allows them to easily dispatch large numbers of opponents for an extended period, but that's just it..."To win without risk is to triumph without glory." – Pierre Corneille. It emphasizes that true victory comes from overcoming challenges rather than achieving success effortlessly. Antiquity's Chinese general Sun Tzu said in "The Art of War" about winning battles with a much smaller army than his opponents's..."Every battle is won before it is ever fought." It emphasizes the importance of preparation, strategy, and foresight. Victory is determined before combat begins, through careful planning and positioning. It goes hand in hand with my other favorite one..."Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

I know WOTC is trying to appeal to a broader base of players in order to keep the game relevant and that's OK. But it isn't a good idea to modify the nature of the game in order to try and appeal to a broader base who are less interested in role-playing. Rather, the inevitable 6e version of D&D should have two sets of rules for every concept of the game. It doesn't have to generate much more text in a source book. One "legacy" for true role playing and one for ...less patient players who were brought up on video games and require more instant gratification without effort.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

You don't even need to have an objective rating of maneuvers to see the issue here. All the BM's maneuvers are available to choose from at level 3, so, at level three, the player picks the maneuvers he considers best, or that best fit his concept or build or whatever. His top 3 choices...

...and, regardless of what an erudite optimizer might think of those choices, next time he picks maneuvers, at higher level, he's taking 4th and later choices.

There need to be more maneuvers, and they need to be apportioned over levels, with higher level maneuvers being better than anything the BM has now.

I dislike the fact that they cannot fulfill my ideal of the fighter that can just "go all day"... fortunately the new Champion can. Plus, I agree that Lv 15 is past the mark a lot of players will even reach to really start stirring the pot. They should probably make Lv 10 a more universal badass fighter Lv, like it is for the Champion now. But I agree with most the deficiencies.

I will say I love the "commanders strike"... too bad I wait until Lv. 15 to use it as frequently as I should be able to. I love trading my little sword & board strike for my bruiser alpha striking comrade's... boy I wish the Warlord was official content

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Except the options don’t really offer new tools to overcome those new challenges, because those tools were available at level 1 when you didn’t face those challenges at all. If the maneuvers scaled they would offer new opportunity where picking niche options would be very valuable while your level 3 maneuvers remain your bread and butter. For exemple: Here's a maneuver that really punishes flying enemy. It's not universal enough for level 3 but by the time you reach the 10s it becomes a valuable tool in the right situation.

Oh yeah, that’s an issue that makes it so the Battlemaster is not a Warlord replacement: he’s only a Warlord a few times a day.

I really need to get around to playing a Rogue. Sounds fun!

Awesome! I hadn't read this yet and had posted about the Warlord... yes warlord lite that can only do it again few times a day ... also, as cool as commanders strike is, you do still give up an attack

 

[Zardnaar]

You don't take maneuvers for extra damage but the rider.

Eg trip. Knock them prone extra d8. Advantage to hit action surge.

You're adding control optio s. A spellcaster can cast tashas hideous laughter using a daily slot. BM gets that effect plus damage as a short rest ability.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

These ️ the usual

Arterial strikes: successful attack will add the wounding weapon, bleeding condition

Attrition strike: successful attack confers -2 AC to opponent for rest of combat (stackable?)