The best of feats, the worst of feats...

[Gladius Legis]

Please explain "multiclassing fully into Warrior of the Wild gaining TS".

As Twin Strike is a Ranger at-will power, and none of the multi-class feats grant access to At-Will powers, I'm wondering what you mean...

Paragon Multiclassing (giving up your Paragon Path to take more powers from your second class). Which is typically weak as hell. Only three powers in the game may even warrant it a look: Righteous Brand (Cleric), Twin Strike (Ranger) and Eyebite (Warlock). And even then, it's a wash.

 

[Ahrimon]

For a lvl 11 rogue I think the best two feats are:

* Wintertouched (taken at lvl 10)
* Lasting Frost (taken at lvl 11)

PLUS a Frost weapon of your choice.

LF makes the target vulnerable to cold/frost so that the rogue both gets Combat Advantage (+2 attacks and Sneak Attack) from Wintertouched, plus +5 damage from the LF.

Twin Striking Rangers (or other class who've multiclassed fully into Warrior of the Wild gaining TS) also benefit extra from this combo (as they gain the +2 CA and +5 damage twice each round).

Can someone explain what trick I'm missing that makes this work?
LF - target gets hit with a cold power will gain vulnerability to cold
WT - automatically gain CA against someone with vulnerability to cold.

But I'm missing how hitting with a frost weapon, even in frost damage mode qualifies as a "power that has the cold keyword". It just makes all the damage cold. Where does it give all your powers the cold keyword just from weilding it? Without that connect, LF doesn't fire off and you can't take advantage from WT.

 

[Mengu]

But I'm missing how hitting with a frost weapon, even in frost damage mode qualifies as a "power that has the cold keyword".

Maybe you're missing the part where the frost weapon description says:

Power (At-Will * Cold)
​

 

[Goumindong]

powers inherit keywords from the weapons/implements they are used from.

 

[Kordeth]

Can someone explain what trick I'm missing that makes this work?
LF - target gets hit with a cold power will gain vulnerability to cold
WT - automatically gain CA against someone with vulnerability to cold.

But I'm missing how hitting with a frost weapon, even in frost damage mode qualifies as a "power that has the cold keyword". It just makes all the damage cold. Where does it give all your powers the cold keyword just from weilding it? Without that connect, LF doesn't fire off and you can't take advantage from WT.

PHB p. 226: Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers often have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item’s power and the other power all apply.

Note that the Frost Weapon's at-will power to turn the weapon's damage to cold damage has the Cold keyword. Ergo any attack made with that item has the Cold keyword.

 

[Ahrimon]

Gotcha, thanks.

Now that I see how you put this combo together I just have to say it feels wrong. I know it's RAW, but it just doesn't feel right.

 

[Alaric_Argent]

That minor action is valuable for other things though, and the flexiblity of switching weapons without losing it is very nice.

Isn't there also a +2 to initiative from Quick Draw? Yes, I know initiative "doesn't matter after the first round," but I'm playing a wizard, and I'd like to get my boffo area effects stuff in first (especially when adventuring with a couple of amazons who don't think much of us men in the party).

 

[toxicspirit]

I just have to say it feels wrong. I know it's RAW, but it just doesn't feel right.

I agree. It doesn't feel quite right to see tons of characters being bandied around all being 'wintertouched'.

I'm sure there will be similar feats in future books dealing with the other Keywords, which will at least diversify the cheesiness somewhat.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now that I see how you put this combo together I just have to say it feels wrong. I know it's RAW, but it just doesn't feel right.

It's slightly better for a Ranger than a Rogue.

If the Rogue hits on Round X, he gets Combat Advantage (+2), Sneak Attack damage, and 5 more damage if he hits on Round X+1.

This means that on rounds that a Rogue misses, the feats do not work on the next round. The Rogue has to hit two rounds in a row (or use an Action Point and hit) in order to start gaining the benefits.

And in situations where the Rogue already has Combat Advantage like Flank, the Wintertouch feat does nothing.

The first Lasting Frost attack also does not get the extra 5 damage. The target gains Vulnerable Cold 5, but did not have Vulnerable Cold 5 on the hit itself, so no extra damage on the hit itself. Just like it did not have Wintertouch on the attack itself, just the next one.

The Rogue would have to hit twice in a row on the same target to gain from this feat combo on the second attack (or three times in a row for the second and third attack, etc.). As long as the Rogue keeps hitting, it's good.

But, once the target falls or the Rogue misses (shy of an Action Point hit), the Rogue has to start all over again.

The reason it is slightly better for a Ranger is that the Ranger only has to hit once per round to maintain the effect.


So it is not automatic, but it works pretty well with Piercing Strike.


And, it gets really out of hand if a Ranger has this feat and other PCs have Frost Weapons or Cold attacks.

A DM who allows this should reconsider.

 

[KarinsDad]

Isn't there also a +2 to initiative from Quick Draw? Yes, I know initiative "doesn't matter after the first round," but I'm playing a wizard, and I'd like to get my boffo area effects stuff in first (especially when adventuring with a couple of amazons who don't thing much of us men in the party).

Initiative is critical in 4E. Most creatures in the MM have good Dex (14+ and many considerably above that) and some creatures get a bonus to Init of +2 or +4 as well.

Not all PCs have such high Dex. Improved Initiative or Quick Draw should be on most player's lists for 4E. It's much more useful than in 3E, just because the monsters are so quick in 4E.

Without Improved Initiative or Quick Draw in the party, the average monster Init will typically be greater than the average PC Init and that chews up resources. It especially does this in combination with Surprise Rounds.

Out of five PCs in our group, one PC has Improved Initiative (Wizard) and one has Quick Draw (Ranger, used for quickly switching from bow to sword) at second level.

Danger Sense is almost as good than Improved Initiative for the most part, but it's even better to take both feats.