• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

What are your favorite 4E elements?


Hussar

Legend
The other problem with [MENTION=6794198]spinozajack[/MENTION]'s's point is the assumption that there were always "better" options. There really rarely were. Give 4e credit where it's due. It was incredibly well balanced. You really had to work to break stuff. And even then it was typically situational.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The other problem with [MENTION=6794198]spinozajack[/MENTION]'s's point is the assumption that there were always "better" options. There really rarely were. Give 4e credit where it's due. It was incredibly well balanced. You really had to work to break stuff. And even then it was typically situational.

Yeah, I thought about that, and decided not to bloat my already overly wordy post any more, lol. This is a fun thing about 4e, there really are MANY ways to achieve thematically similar results. They will be different enough to be interesting in play, but all roughly similar in power. You can build some very tricked out character builds of certain types that are rather OP, but they're very thematically restricted (such as charge-optimized characters, yeah, they're stupid high DPR, but good luck reflavoring that...).
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The other problem with [MENTION=6794198]spinozajack[/MENTION]'s's point is the assumption that there were always "better" options. There really rarely were. Give 4e credit where it's due. It was incredibly well balanced. You really had to work to break stuff. And even then it was typically situational.
To be fair, there were better options and worse options, but there was very rarely a best option.
 

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
The other problem with [MENTION=6794198]spinozajack[/MENTION]'s's point is the assumption that there were always "better" options. There really rarely were. Give 4e credit where it's due. It was incredibly well balanced. You really had to work to break stuff. And even then it was typically situational.

I disagree about there being any semblance of balance. If there were, every class feature choice, power choice, feat choice would have the same color grading in the char op forum.

Instead, what you have is thousands of options and only a handful of sky blue or gold ones. Once you sift through the top tier choices, and ignore the cruft or trap choices, there really isn't much variety at all.

Damage is / was kind in 4th ed, and many other editions too. But especially when combat tended to turn into a slow grind, if you didn't max out your accuracy and damage, things took forever to die. The best strategy to avoid grind is simply moar damage, and once you realize that dead is the best status condition to impose, you can pick your abilities accordingly. Once I learned this, I retrained out most of the defensive abilities in the characters I played, and ended up winning fights faster with less HP lost too, even though I had lower defenses, killing monsters one round sooner is a pre-emptive defense and there you go. This is something quite common to all D&D though, including 5th edition. But to even pretend like all character build choices you can pick were balanced is way off the mark. Go read any class guide in the 4e forums, you'll see. Most of the options in the character builder are terrible or at least substantially weaker than the top tier picks. And usually there is one at every level and in every class that is way ahead of the others. In practice you do end up seeing a lot of the same builds, feats, powers used repeatedly. Why choose inferior options? Those options are not all created equal, meaning the game itself wasn't balanced in the sense you are claiming. Not even close. And balance between classes was better than earlier D&D editions, but that was achieved with a uniform power and class structure which many people found homogenized the classes too much. In 5th ed, each class plays quite differently, they have different relative amounts of at-will / encounter / daily resources to spend, which means the pacing and nova strategies are sometimes quite different. It's never the case, in any 4e combat, where you do not use your encounter powers at the top of the round. If you wait too long, you might not get to use them. Dailies are the same. If you expect 3 combats per day, then you use roughly one daily a combat. Not so in 5e, there are many variations of when to use your spell slots, in or out of combat. Name me one instance of someone using a daily outside of combat. Even daily utility powers were designed for combat due to their short duration and limited applicability.

For my own preferences, I loved wizards and clerics getting at-wills and am very happy they kept those in 5th edition in the form of cantrips. There were unlimited cantrips in 3e and PF too if I remember correctly, but they weren't combat-worthy and rarely useful anyway thanks to the huge number of daily spells. I do like that 5th edition took 4th ed's lead somewhat on reducing the number of daily spell slots in total, and found a happy middle ground. 3-5 dailies in 4e was way too low, and earlier D&D had way too many, beyond low levels at least.
 

I disagree about there being any semblance of balance. If there were, every class feature choice, power choice, feat choice would have the same color grading in the char op forum.
But for this purpose what does it matter if every option is equally good or not? There are TONS of options. There's no way you can tell me that for any given level you can't find a wizard spell that does basically what you want, and is a reasonable power. Not only that but the char op guides only tell you what certain people think, usually because they only build certain very narrow builds. Depending on what choices you make, totally different powers become more or less important. There are no hard and fast choices. There may be a few powers that are 'clunkers', they're never really very good choices, but most of them do work and if you want certain thematics they work fine, or they are great complements to other assortments of powers/feats/whatever.

Instead, what you have is thousands of options and only a handful of sky blue or gold ones. Once you sift through the top tier choices, and ignore the cruft or trap choices, there really isn't much variety at all.
Yeah, this is just nonsense. I've made 100's of 4e characters, and DMed for players running MANY other ones. We never explored even a tiny percentage of all the possibilities and there were huge numbers of viable ones. To call a power 'sky blue' or 'gold' outside of any context is meaningless, and just because one power might give you .075 more DPR just doesn't matter to most people.

Damage is / was kind in 4th ed, and many other editions too. But especially when combat tended to turn into a slow grind, if you didn't max out your accuracy and damage, things took forever to die. The best strategy to avoid grind is simply moar damage, and once you realize that dead is the best status condition to impose, you can pick your abilities accordingly. Once I learned this, I retrained out most of the defensive abilities in the characters I played, and ended up winning fights faster with less HP lost too, even though I had lower defenses, killing monsters one round sooner is a pre-emptive defense and there you go. This is something quite common to all D&D though, including 5th edition. But to even pretend like all character build choices you can pick were balanced is way off the mark. Go read any class guide in the 4e forums, you'll see. Most of the options in the character builder are terrible or at least substantially weaker than the top tier picks. And usually there is one at every level and in every class that is way ahead of the others. In practice you do end up seeing a lot of the same builds, feats, powers used repeatedly. Why choose inferior options?
I see, you are a pure theorycrafter. In sphereworld all this might be true in some sense. If you play in real campaigns that have a real plot and diverse situations that the PCs must navigate then things are totally different. All you ever did apparently was fight some endless series of essentially identical 'steel cage death match' fights with no other goals but killing, and no other outcomes but total annihilation to the last hit point. Its the paucity of diverse situations in the play you have encountered that is the issue here, not the system.

Those options are not all created equal, meaning the game itself wasn't balanced in the sense you are claiming. Not even close. And balance between classes was better than earlier D&D editions, but that was achieved with a uniform power and class structure which many people found homogenized the classes too much. In 5th ed, each class plays quite differently, they have different relative amounts of at-will / encounter / daily resources to spend, which means the pacing and nova strategies are sometimes quite different. It's never the case, in any 4e combat, where you do not use your encounter powers at the top of the round. If you wait too long, you might not get to use them. Dailies are the same. If you expect 3 combats per day, then you use roughly one daily a combat. Not so in 5e, there are many variations of when to use your spell slots, in or out of combat. Name me one instance of someone using a daily outside of combat. Even daily utility powers were designed for combat due to their short duration and limited applicability.
5e is a perfectly good game for what it is, but it can't hold a candle to 4e in terms of real heroic action-adventure play. They are totally different games. Personally I think 5e is a lot more restricted in terms of what its mechanics can handle than 4e is, but that's just me. 4e was easy to run, 5e not so much. I may be biased, but AEDU WORKED, 5e's 'hodgepodge' doesn't work nearly as well.

For my own preferences, I loved wizards and clerics getting at-wills and am very happy they kept those in 5th edition in the form of cantrips. There were unlimited cantrips in 3e and PF too if I remember correctly, but they weren't combat-worthy and rarely useful anyway thanks to the huge number of daily spells. I do like that 5th edition took 4th ed's lead somewhat on reducing the number of daily spell slots in total, and found a happy middle ground. 3-5 dailies in 4e was way too low, and earlier D&D had way too many, beyond low levels at least.

I think 4e's number of powers, what was presented in the original PHB1 rules, was great. It was later bloated all out of need, but that's another story. 5e wizards OTOH have WAY too much leeway. I'm playing one, and at 5th level I've been dominating play since almost level 1. Up to level 5 the fighters sometimes got a chance to shine, but I don't even need them anymore, I'd be better off with all wizards for companions to be perfectly frank (well, and a healy cleric). The straight up battlemaster, he's got really nothing much to offer at this point. Yeah, he does nice damage, but his AC is barely better than my wizard, who can always toss up a shield if he needs to, and has 9 spell slots worth of hurt he can dish out, plus Fire Bolt, which at 2d10 ain't bad. The fighter in some sense may still 'outclass' me in raw damage dealing, but my spells are far beyond anything he can do, AND I can cast a bunch of them as rituals, meaning I often don't even use up a slot if its not a combat situation! Said fighter is strong, but if he's not using a weapon he's nothing special.

Yes, 5e has mechanical diversity, so it also has mechanical irrelevance of entire classes. Its not nearly as bad as 3.x or 2e, but they gave up a huge amount of good stuff just to pretend that fighters don't use powers. The funny thing is, they still do basically. There's all sorts of "1 use per day" and whatnot abilities on all these classes. It was all a lot of cost for pretty much nothing in my book.

I think 4e has problems, as I've said, and I think 5e has done a couple of fairly nice things, as I've also said in the past, but IMHO a better game would combine those couple of things with 4e's mechanics and build better content around them, and it would be a REALLY much better game. IMHO.
 

I disagree about there being any semblance of balance. If there were, every class feature choice, power choice, feat choice would have the same color grading in the char op forum.

Instead, what you have is thousands of options and only a handful of sky blue or gold ones. Once you sift through the top tier choices, and ignore the cruft or trap choices, there really isn't much variety at all.

Damage is / was kind in 4th ed, and many other editions too. But especially when combat tended to turn into a slow grind, if you didn't max out your accuracy and damage, things took forever to die. The best strategy to avoid grind is simply moar damage, and once you realize that dead is the best status condition to impose, you can pick your abilities accordingly. Once I learned this, I retrained out most of the defensive abilities in the characters I played, and ended up winning fights faster with less HP lost too, even though I had lower defenses, killing monsters one round sooner is a pre-emptive defense and there you go. This is something quite common to all D&D though, including 5th edition. But to even pretend like all character build choices you can pick were balanced is way off the mark. Go read any class guide in the 4e forums, you'll see. Most of the options in the character builder are terrible or at least substantially weaker than the top tier picks. And usually there is one at every level and in every class that is way ahead of the others. In practice you do end up seeing a lot of the same builds, feats, powers used repeatedly. Why choose inferior options? Those options are not all created equal, meaning the game itself wasn't balanced in the sense you are claiming. Not even close. And balance between classes was better than earlier D&D editions, but that was achieved with a uniform power and class structure which many people found homogenized the classes too much. In 5th ed, each class plays quite differently, they have different relative amounts of at-will / encounter / daily resources to spend, which means the pacing and nova strategies are sometimes quite different. It's never the case, in any 4e combat, where you do not use your encounter powers at the top of the round. If you wait too long, you might not get to use them. Dailies are the same. If you expect 3 combats per day, then you use roughly one daily a combat. Not so in 5e, there are many variations of when to use your spell slots, in or out of combat. Name me one instance of someone using a daily outside of combat. Even daily utility powers were designed for combat due to their short duration and limited applicability.

I

feel

like

we've

been

here

before

.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's never the case, in any 4e combat, where you do not use your encounter powers at the top of the round.
This is not my experience.

If your encounter powers are immediate/free actions, you wait for them to be triggered.

If your encounter powers are AoEs, you might have to reshape the battlefield first.

If your encounter powers grant healing, you might wait until you or allies have lost hit points.

Dailies are much the same. Particularly at lower levels, when dailies were a bit more scarce, my players would not all use a daily per encounter. They ration them for when they need them.
 

This is not my experience.

If your encounter powers are immediate/free actions, you wait for them to be triggered.

If your encounter powers are AoEs, you might have to reshape the battlefield first.

If your encounter powers grant healing, you might wait until you or allies have lost hit points.

Dailies are much the same. Particularly at lower levels, when dailies were a bit more scarce, my players would not all use a daily per encounter. They ration them for when they need them.

Even if your encounter power is a really nasty blast of damage you don't want to just fire it off at random without some buffs and debuffs in play. I mean round 2 WILL come, you can always hold off on your Icy Rays until AFTER the cleric hits the guy with Burning Brand.
 

Even if your encounter power is a really nasty blast of damage you don't want to just fire it off at random without some buffs and debuffs in play. I mean round 2 WILL come, you can always hold off on your Icy Rays until AFTER the cleric hits the guy with Burning Brand.

Again though, the whole "HEY GUYS THE BEST STATUS CONDITION IS DEAD THEREFORE SINGLE TARGET NOVA DAMAGE IS KING" thing is blown out of the water by the myriad components of 4e that diffuse that narrow paradigm:

1) Fair portion of combat encounter budget spent on:

a) Swarms
b) Minions
c) Punitive Traps/Hazards that can't be bypassed/dealt with via HP ablation
d) Monsters with punitive auras that require mobility or forced movement to deploy and survive
e) Heavy controllers that synergize with obstacles/terrain, making deployment of single target damage difficult without mobility or reliance on teammates
f) Leaders with suites of immediate actions which negate damage, allow mooks to take hits in their stead, or which allow the damage to be spread around

2) And of course high stakes (story and resource-wise) Skill Challenges making up a healthy percentage of daily encounters


Any GM who is intimately familiar with the ruleset, who is creative, and who is good at their craft won't deal with this unbalanced, MOAR DAMAGE phantom 4e. I'm sorry that some people had their perceptions of the ruleset stained due to having played solely under uncreative, proficiency-lacking 4e GMs who couldn't/didn't run a lot of good SCs and who trotted out encounters that were overburdened by synergiless HP-bags antagonists and missing dynamic terrain elements. I truly am. But my sympathy and their misery notwithstanding, user error is user error...nothing more. Same thing goes with Skill Challenges turning into "nothing but roll-fests."
 

Again though, the whole "HEY GUYS THE BEST STATUS CONDITION IS DEAD THEREFORE SINGLE TARGET NOVA DAMAGE IS KING" thing is blown out of the water by the myriad components of 4e that diffuse that narrow paradigm:

1) Fair portion of combat encounter budget spent on:

a) Swarms
b) Minions
c) Punitive Traps/Hazards that can't be bypassed/dealt with via HP ablation
d) Monsters with punitive auras that require mobility or forced movement to deploy and survive
e) Heavy controllers that synergize with obstacles/terrain, making deployment of single target damage difficult without mobility or reliance on teammates
f) Leaders with suites of immediate actions which negate damage, allow mooks to take hits in their stead, or which allow the damage to be spread around

2) And of course high stakes (story and resource-wise) Skill Challenges making up a healthy percentage of daily encounters


Any GM who is intimately familiar with the ruleset, who is creative, and who is good at their craft won't deal with this unbalanced, MOAR DAMAGE phantom 4e. I'm sorry that some people had their perceptions of the ruleset stained due to having played solely under uncreative, proficiency-lacking 4e GMs who couldn't/didn't run a lot of good SCs and who trotted out encounters that were overburdened by synergiless HP-bags antagonists and missing dynamic terrain elements. I truly am. But my sympathy and their misery notwithstanding, user error is user error...nothing more. Same thing goes with Skill Challenges turning into "nothing but roll-fests."

Yeah, what I discovered rapidly was that the game thrives on highly dynamic situations. When running fast, leaping, jumping, flying, squeezing into places, hiding, dodging, swimming, quickly figuring out the ticking time bomb, poking out the cyclop's eye, etc etc etc all totally trump damage then things are very different.
 

Remove ads

Top