D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

What are your favorite 4E elements?


D'karr

Adventurer
Could you give an example... outside of stealth as to what you are talking about? I'd be especially curious in what "issues" surround the tool proficiencies...
Even though forum drift is natural can you please take this line of conversation to another thread? Even though I'm not the OP this thread is called The Best Thing about 4e. Last time I looked Tool proficiencies were definitely not a part of 4e.
 

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Imaro

Legend
Even though forum drift is natural can you please take this line of conversation to another thread? Even though I'm not the OP this thread is called The Best Thing about 4e. Last time I looked Tool proficiencies were definitely not a part of 4e.

I didn't bring it up and there's been conversation about 5e in this thread for pages now without you asking anyone else to take it some where else... That said you're not a moderator but if you believe my question is somehow out of line with what is currently being discussed feel free to report me.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
I didn't feel the need to report you as what you were asking is not something that I'd consider offensive, rude, or out of line. You are well within your rights to discuss, as I'm well within my rights to ask that you do it in another, more appropriate, thread.

I simply asked nicely that if you want to discuss 5e Tool Proficiencies, something that is definitely not one of the best things about 4e, that you please take the conversation to an appropriate thread.

You are right that I'm not a moderator. I asked you nicely as a fellow poster on this thread. There are enough threads already to discuss tool proficiencies on, I'd like this one not to be another one of them.
 

Imaro

Legend
I didn't feel the need to report you as what you were asking is not something that I'd consider offensive, rude, or out of line. You are well within your rights to discuss, as I'm well within my rights to ask that you do it in another, more appropriate, thread.

I simply asked nicely that if you want to discuss 5e Tool Proficiencies, something that is definitely not one of the best things about 4e, that you please take the conversation to an appropriate thread.

You are right that I'm not a moderator. I asked you nicely as a fellow poster on this thread. There are enough threads already to discuss tool proficiencies on, I'd like this one not to be another one of them.

And again... there has been a ton of discussion about 5e and even other people's homebrew systems in this thread... so why now is my question suddenly an issue for you when none of those other off topic posts were?
 

D'karr

Adventurer
I asked. You can easily say no, and continue the off-topic conversation. I don't think it requires pages of additional off-topic conversation between us for a justification of why.

I have nothing else to say about the conversation and will just return to posting on-topic.

Thanks.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
Another thing that I find The Best Thing about 4e, is the story elements of Epic Play. I read with excitement reports of Epic Play and the story that emerges from them is always exciting.
 

Funny, many of the the non-4e crowd viewed the 4e system as WoW for table-top. They never observed innovation just amalgamtion, pandering to the whims and likes of the MMO craze which was pulling away the potential RPG fanbase.
They never looked very hard, did they? I always found the WoW comparisons to be ridiculous, like comparing cruise ships to freight trains. Yeah, they're both entertainment, they both deal with fantasy, beyond that there's just nothing much in common between them. Even if some element is present in both the context is so hugely different its irrelevant. MMOs aren't even really role-playing games except in the most superficial sense. There's no plot or narrative, nothing even faintly like it. Its like saying Cruise Ships are just trains because they both have diesel engines. Besides WoW got pretty much all its ideas from D&D to start with. 4e didn't need to 'amalgamate' anything.
I'm curious, besides skill checks, which I personally miss but I do incorporate into 5e, what innovations are you talking about - power cards and their ash heaps or graveyards?
Real innovation will only come once WotC stops pandering to Hindu's and Vegans and slays a few sacred cows.One such example, being the continuous and ridiculous growth of hit points which then requires the remaining mechanics to deal with ever increasing numbers. The last 3 versions of the game suffer from that the most, despite their innovations.
I guess you forgot what thread you're posting in? Scroll to the top of the page dude and refresh your memory!

Do you think forging wildly ahead (by WotC) with radically new ideas would have done the hobby/player-base any good?

In the long run? Everything either changes or dies. Its just that simple.
And you think WotC, the playerbase, the hobby would better survive having fractured the community once more? Interesting, I think that is very optimistic of you...but
Fractured once more? Who exactly fractured it the first time, WotC or all the people who couldn't bare to see anything change? Sticking with 4e or releasing some sort of updated version of 4e wouldn't have 'fractured' anything AGAIN. If half the community decided to stay behind they did the fracturing, and creating a 5e that pretty much dumped on 4e player's desires was of course not fracturing anything, or was it?

...this sounds awfully pessimistic. My view on this edition is completely different to yours.

  • Just to mention that there are already 4e enthusiasts drafting power cards for the 5e classes in the Homebrew section of Enworld. I cannot count how many times I have heard 4e players mention that AEDU existed in earlier versions of D&D, so 5e class abilities are just the AEDU in a different format.
  • Plenty are incorporating their own versions of the 4e Skill Challenge Mechanics in 5e.
  • Replace Inspiration with Action Points, if you're missing it
  • Ability Improvements exist in 5e.
So your argument here can be summarized as "you're just bitching, man up and rewrite 5e to work how you want it to, if you can homebrew it then there's no issue. And that wasn't an answer for people who didn't like some things in 4e why?


  • Monsters are simple in 5e and well most DMs I know tinker with monsters anyway. We all had to given the terribly unbalanced, untested 4e MM1. Didn’t they revise Orcus like 3 times? All I can say is thank god for SlyFlourish’s monster-damage table.
lol, again, "oh, you don't like it, so jut rewrite the monsters!" I had no major issues with MM1 4e monsters for the most part I hate to tell you. I think the monsters got better with time, undoubtedly, but MM1 was not 'terribly unbalanced' or 'untested'. I do think that WotC had a poor understanding of the strong points of 4e and their monster design was in service of an agenda that wasn't quite in sync with that. As for Orcus, 5e doesn't even attempt to have a real epic tier in the same way that 4e did, nor am I particularly convinced that its 'name' monsters are yet tested. I certainly haven't hear anyone talking about fighting Orcus in 5e and what happened. Ironically, to the extent that 5e monster design exceeds 2e monster design which it seems to be based on, it is only when it DOES incorporate some scrap of 4e design.
  • Save Ends was brought across from 4e to 5e.
Pinch me! lol. Honestly I'm not convinced this was even one of the good points of 4e myself...
  • A decent balance exists between the classes.
Hmmmmm, last night my group of level 4 characters 'slew' a dragon (the Green Dragon from Phandelver, though we finished that module quite a while ago). The entire scheme was cooked up by and depended ENTIRELY on the use of the Alarm spell. The rest of the characters played their parts, but at no time did any of them even exercise a class ability. Now, this is a BIT of an extreme case, but the wizard is definitely boss-man in our party, and the other characters aren't poorly set up. He just has a MUCH greater flexibility of options for all situations. I'd say its less balanced than 4e, though even there wizards played cleverly were pretty good.
  • Mechanical alignment is optional as are non-good paladins.
  • 5e has rituals, conditions and you can use grid-play.
  • Replace Hit Dice with Surges.
  • Death saves, yup, they are there too.
But all of these things are quite different and serve quite a different agenda. 5e rituals make spell casters better, 4e rituals did various things, but they certainly weren't restricted to any particular class. 5e supports 'grid play' the same way older editions did, you can just kinda do it but its not actually leveraged in any effective way. Etc.
  • The 4 Combat Roles. Well we had @GMforPowergamers and @pemerton and a great deal many inform everyone on another thread that those roles have always existed within D&D so I guess, 4e players would identify those roles within 5e. Funny how the OP lists the 4 Combat Roles as if they are exclusive to 4e. @Imaro, @SirAntoine and @BryonD would would certainly find this amusing.
The benefit, IMHO, of the combat roles BEING EXPLICIT, was that it greatly improved class design.


If it is a tombstone edition because so much of 4e is in 5e, then I guess you're right, but then that would make 4e a tombstone edition given how much of it exists in 3.5e

Its a tombstone because it represents the retreat from any notion of innovation. 4e innovated on 3.5, 5e retrenched, adding very little and regressing in most respects. It is a signpost that says "this is as far as we're willing to go with this, no further."
 

Imaro

Legend
I asked. You can easily say no, and continue the off-topic conversation. I don't think it requires pages of additional off-topic conversation between us for a justification of why.

I have nothing else to say about the conversation and will just return to posting on-topic.

Thanks.

No it doesn't require pages of off-topic discussion... I was curious why my particular post as opposed to the numerous others here that are not about the best thing about 4e elicited a request that I not continue from you... you've chosen not to give any reason so I'll leave it at that. Oh, and you're welcome.
 

This post was inspired by [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s thoughts about "rulings not rules".

<snip>
I'm interested in any thoughts around techniques, agendas, illusionism,"rulings not rules", etc.

Certainly. I'm going to break it up into this post and a post for later today as these are not particularly complex while the last one is much more nuanced (and agenda, principle, technique-driven).

I had already noted that when Lolth discorporated, she would die but the Queen of Chaos would be freed (my Lolth backstory: she became corrupted because, when she used her webs to hold the world together she encountered, and was possessed by, the Queen of Chaos at the bottom of the Abyss). So I rolled Bluff for Lolth and then got the players to roll Insight - two of them beat her (the paladin and the invoker/wizard) and so I told them they could see her smirking, and almost welcoming being bloodied - and then when they asked why I told them that they suddenly recalled (one in his capacity as a Marshall of Letherna, the other as a Sage of Ages with Memories of 1000 Lifetimes) that a deity who is bloodied might discorporate - and the Sage of Ages (bearing the Rod of Law and having made the better check, beating a Hard DC) could sense the Queen of Chaos about to break free.

That was the first need for a "ruling" - on making and getting info from a skill check.

On this one I think I would have done one of a few things depending on (a) how front and center this Lolth/QoC backstory aspect of the campaign was and (b) its impact on coming mechanical resolution. General thoughts:

1) I don't think I would have gone with Bluff vs Insight regardless. I would have automatically told all the PCs that they could see her smirking and sense/feel an ominous thrum of titanic power reverberating through their bones with Lolth as the obvious epicenter...revealing the unwelcome truth that something cataclysmic was about to happen.

2) If the backstory wasn't extremely prominent (but relevant..which I'm generally of the sense that any relevant backstory needs to usually be extremely prominent) to the campaign (but potentially mechanically impactful), the players could have made an action declaration for a Religion check (knowledge immortals) to discern the nature of what was about to happen. With success, they would have learned the fictional positioning (The QoC emerging at Lolth's discorporation and the implications therein) and what that meant mechanically (eg, they're going to be fighting a new solo at 100 % HP with thematic powers x, y, z...and Abyssal Hazard a, b, c were going to erupt).

or

3) If the backstory was extremekly prominent and relevant, then I would have reiterated the prominent fictional positioning of what was happening and the Reilgion check would have been merely to uncover metagame information to help inform subsequent action declarations.

All of that is assuming that I well-understood the nature of the theme on your overall campaign (which I believe I do having read your play-session reports) and how events unfolded at the table for this particular conflict (which I may not be).

The second came up because the trigger for Lolth's discorporation is being bloodied, and it takes place as "no action". The fighter has a power, Sudden Opportunity, that is a free action when an enemy becomes bloodied. I let him take his attack. He rolled a crit, which took another 100-odd points of Lolth, but still left her up.

That was the second need for a "ruling" - on the play sequence of resolution.

On this, I think without question you made the right call (and I'm not sure I would even put this in "ruling" territory). Even though the fictional positioning says "Lolth is now a new entity and no longer bloodied because of discorporation...even though "no action" speed (0 time - it is passive in the fiction and just automatically happens by causal logic but player/GM fiat) is quicker than "free action" speed (inconsequential amount of time - but it does require observation, orientation, decision, and action within the fiction)...the player has purchased a PC build resource that triggers upon the metagame condition of "Bloodied" being met. Where a "no action" NPC effect triggered on bloodied (which changes the entire landscape of the mechanics) and a "free action" PC ability triggered on bloodied intersect, the GM should always allow the PC their ability to deploy that triggered effect (free action - upon Bloodied).

Otherwise, you're getting into dangerous adversarial territory where GMs are contriving no-action effects which subvert the nature of PC build choices because they contrive to deny the manifestation of the conditions (in this case "Bloodied") that trigger them. Accordingly, erring on the side of the player here is a no-brainer.

Because his roll was a 20, he was able to use his paragon path ability to recover a daily power - I ruled that he could recover Sudden Opportunity.

That was the third need for a "ruling" - on whether or not a daily power is expended, hence recoverable, when the roll to hit for it has been made and another ability triggered by that roll.

Again, I think you unquestionably made the right decision here and I'm not certain it qualifies as a "ruling." "Expending a martial daily" and "recovering a martial daily" occur at the metagame level which is what is relevant to resolving the mechanical expression of their intersection. However one wants to quantify that within the fiction they can do so (eg fate, heroic mettle, divine intervention, proficiency). However, at the (relevant) metagame level, the chronological order of events is:

Action declared = expended daily > resolution roll = critical > player declares recovery of expended daily. So not only do I think that you made the correct choice, I think any case for another one is fraught with wrongitudeness.

Sudden Opportunity is triggered on an enemy become bloodied or being critted. So I ruled that the fighter, having recovered it by critting, could use it again.

That was the fourth need for a "ruling".

Again, not a ruling here. This is, unfortunately, a mis-application of the free action rules. While a creature can usually take as many free actions on a turn as they wish (their turn or enemies' turns), the deployment of an attack power is an exception to this. Creatures can only use a free action to take an attack power 1/turn. If I'm reading it correctly (I believe that I am?), this was two free action attack powers on the same turn.

Regarding techniques, the above just follows pretty orthodox play procedures for 4e.

Regarding agendas, you're filling your players (and their characters) lives with mythical fantasy adventure, letting play be an emergent thing that snowballs (based on player action declaration as they advocate for their PCs, based on fair and proper resolution, and using the legitimacy of that process to frame the subsequent fiction, with coherent focus on the PCs' thematic interests, and with the throttle to the floor). I'd say that is pretty much 100 % the proper agenda for running 4e.

Regarding illusionism, while it can be a very subtle thing, I don't detect any signs of it in the above. I would have treated the first part differently (as I outlined above) but I think that is likely just slight differences in how we run our respective tables and where the focus lies. Or again, it may be that I'm not seeing the bigger picture based off my parsing of your post.

Regarding "rulings not rules", I don't see it much of it in the above post. The only place I really see it is in the intersection of an NPC no-action ability at Bloodied (which outright changes the fiction upon "Bloodied" therefore, at the metagame level, upturning the resolution-relevance of that condition) and a PC free-action ability at bloodied. For the sake of a healthy table, I don't see how you can rule any other way beyond what you did. 4e, being an exception-based design system with robust mechanics for orthodox resolution and unorthodox stunting, requires an extremely remote number of rulings and those are only at the very periphery of the resolution mechanics.

I'll comment on the last one when I'm able to read it over again to make sure that I understand the nuance.
 

If I get these three things online and a great system at my table, then I am a happy person.

I don't doubt that. Were you looking for deeper commentary on something else (perhaps your more in-depth post to LostSoul below?) or did you just feel like letting me know that?
 

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