D&D General The Brilliance of the Original Gygaxian Multiverse

[Aaron L]

See, that's where I disagree.

The inner and outer planes are a forced expansion. They don't .... really .... add very much. Yes, there is a vocal contingent of Planescape fans, but the details about the outer planes did not expand the game so much as it constricted it.

You ask what the expanded Prime Material did? It did everything! And in a deliberately useful way. Instead of the crabbed and useless outer planes, you had an infinite possibility of planes. You had the explicity recognition that PCs would go from campaign to campaign (as @darjr just noted). You had campaigns using different mechanics from different genres. You had the regular inclusion in published materials from the 70s and early 80s.

Now? You don't have that. We have sacrificed actual diversity for monotony, and infinite possibilities for arguments about the shape of outer planes (is it a wheel, or a tree?).

Eh, to each their own.

Plus, I just revile the idea of villages of mortals living in Heaven and Hell. It really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Aaron L]

Returning to the OP, I think it overstate the "problem." Is there a problem with bringing together Magic and D&D worlds? No, especially considering the default assumption of Rule Zero (or perhaps we should call it Rule Hyperzero to differentiate from specific in-game rulings): Every DM is the Creator of their campaign and, in this context, can decide how things are put together. This includes whether or not different worlds are in the same physical universe or not, or alternate planes, or different universes, etc.

As far as canon goes, my assumption has always been that the Prime Material Plane is basically synonymous with Multiverse--if we take that to mean the entire physical universe, other physical universes, including alternate universes--emphasis on the word physical. "Material" as in of material existence, or matter. Jeff Grubb altered this somewhat in Manual of the Planes by adding plurality based around individual campaigns. Meaning, my campaign is set in the Prime Material, while yours is an alternate Prime Material (unless I say that yours is within mine, which is entirely up to me). This is mostly just a convention of the D&D community. It doesn't really change the basic Gygaxian structure in any meaningful way; it merely states what was already implied: that we all create our own version of the game that is primary.

On a side note, it is worth noting that the esoteric philosophies that Gygax based his original conception on hold that the "planes" beyond the physical are non-physical. They are "energetic dimensions" if we understand that to mean non-physical energies and dimensions. The most common Western esoteric model holds that each of us is comprised of four "bodies," of which modern science only recognizes one: the physical. The other three are etheric, astral, and spiritual (there are variations, but that's the gist of it). Hinduism envisions these as the five koshas, or sheathes: annamaya (food/physical), pranamayakosha (breath/etheric), manomaya (mind), vijnanamaya (higher mind, or intuition), and anandamaya (bliss). Some Asian traditions see three domains, correlating with the waking world, dreaming, and deep sleep; when we're awake, we're in the material world; when we're dreaming, we're in the astral world; when we're in deep sleep, we're in the spiritual world.

Gygax, in a sense, materialized the entire structure, bringing it all down to the physical--or at least apparently physical. I don't know whether he did this out of ignorance, or utility; I would assume the latter. But if we go back to the esoteric traditions, whether of the East or West, we could imagine that the planes are actually non-physical realities translated and experienced as physical realities. Matrices, in other words, but not cybernetic or reliant upon the physical world in any way.

Now if we envision the planes as being actual other physical realities that characters go to, in a sense we're misconstruing them from the original Gygaxian idea, that all physical realities are actually Prime Material. Again, without going back and reading the text, I'm uncertain whether this was "Gygaxian confusion" or a recognition that a person identified with the Prime Material would experience non-physical realities as if they were physical.

I thought it was a basic assumption that all the non-Material planes, were, well... non-Material? The Astral spell even explicitly says that it creates a compatible body for you in the new plane you travel too. The only violation is with the Plane Shift spell, which actually physically moves you to another plane.

That was my main objection to Planescape, in that it basically portrayed the Outer Planes as basically just being alien worlds. For all the lip-service paid to the idea of the Outer Planes being realms of belief and thought, they sure felt and looked and behaved like alien planets, populated by weird physical alien creatures, and complete with colonizing mortals living in basically normal physical material villages and cities.

 

[Mercurius]

I thought it was a basic assumption that all the non-Material planes, were, well... non-Material? The Astral spell even explicitly says that it creates a compatible body for you in the new plane you travel too. The only violation is with the Plane Shift spell, which actually physically moves you to another plane.

That was my main objection to Planescape, in that it basically portrayed the Outer Planes as basically just being alien worlds. For all the lip-service paid to the idea of the Outer Planes being realms of belief and thought, they sure felt and looked and behaved like alien planets, populated by weird physical alien creatures, and complete with colonizing mortals living in basically normal physical material villages and cities.

I hear you, although I think we can chalk this up to playability. A concession, if you will, as for most it is easier to imagine the planes as other worlds than non-physical dimensions. This is a tabletop RPG, after all, and not an esoteric manual.

That said, it would be an interesting angle to take: optional rules for more literal (non-physical) extra-planar travel.

 

[Aaron L]

I hear you, although I think we can chalk this up to playability. A concession, if you will, as for most it is easier to imagine the planes as other worlds than non-physical dimensions. This is a tabletop RPG, after all, and not an esoteric manual.

That said, it would be an interesting angle to take: optional rules for more literal (non-physical) extra-planar travel.

I totally agree... it was just that they seemed to forget that they were only using a convenient narrative shorthand to depict non-physical spiritual planes, and went too far and had people actually living in these metaphysical places.

 

[Staffan]

I mean, sure, the original AD&D cosmology had "infinite worlds" within the prime material plane (whether these were separate material planes or "layers" or parallel worlds seems rather academic). But it still had a very specific arrangement of all the other planes: six primary inner planes (air, fire, earth, water, positive, negative), four para-elemental and eight quasi-elemental planes on the borders of these, the ethereal, astral, and shadow planes, and the seventeen alignment-based outer planes. And that's a pretty big limiter on how those infinite worlds can differ (unless you use the "different perspectives" cop-out).

For this purpose, I prefer the 3e conceit that each prime has its own cosmology, and the connecting tissue between them is the Shadow Plane. So Oerth is at the center of the Great Wheel cosmology, Al-Toril is at the base of the World Tree, and Eberron is at the center of a Cosmic Orrery. This lets each world deal with planar stuff in ways befitting that world, without messing with the way things work in other worlds.

 

[ilgatto]

What a shame that this thread quickly turned into a somewhat misplaced debate about what is canon and what isn’t after the OP sort of explicitly implied that he actually rejected everything canon.

The first thing that came to my mind when I read the OP (perhaps like @Todd Roybark, here) was that the whole Gygaxian concept of a “Prime Material Plane” is, perhaps, first and foremost a result of practice and the lack of “canon”.

I mean, here he was, Gary Gygax, filled to the brim with the heroics of Conan, John Carter, Jirel of Joiry, Cugel, Dark Agnes, Shadowjack, Eric John Stark, of cowboys and Indians, and all manner of other heroes fantastic and science fiction, of the stories and worlds of Tolkien, Vance, Clark Ashton Smith, Dunsany, Anderson, Lovecraft, and Zelazny, of King Kong, of Alice, of Pellucidar, the Dying Earth, Hyperborea, Ringworld, alternate Earths, and what have you… and then he could suddenly live and make folks live all of them.

So why put a limit on things? Why limit yourself when you’re telling your kids marvelous stories at the kitchen table when play-testing your game? Why not use simple doors to take them to wherever takes your fancy? Why not have the Isle of the Ape behind one door, Wonderland behind a second, Barsoom behind the next, and Boot Hill behind the fourth? I mean, there’s no reason not to, is there, since you’re bloody well creating the game, aren’t you?

When our group of grew and grew and we eventually had as many DMs as we had players, our PCs would simply hop from dungeon to dungeon, from wilderness to wilderness, from adventure to adventure, from story to story on a weekly basis without a second thought and without any other reason or explanation than that we wanted to play as much as possible.

It was only after we started building our worlds that we began to think about how they actually worked, about where demons, devils, efreet, and the gods resided, about the reality of things – that we started thinking about how it could be possible that PCs simply hopped from world to world. We came up with all manner of solutions – a misty forest (Ravenloft, anyone?), a multi-dimensional inn (Sigil, anyone?), a shared world map…

[rant]…which failed when my neighbor announced that he had nuclear reactors in the mountains between our nations, where I had carefully placed Rahab, the grey dragon, because nobody even knew a creature like that existed for I was the only one with that issue of Dragon Magazine! Ye Gods! To this day I clam up with frustration when the subject of these nuclear reactors comes up.[/rant]

But then, we weren’t as well-versed in pulp fantasy and science fiction as EGG undoubtedly was – not American and therefore no history with all of that – so we had no notion of how the writers of the day dealt with such matters. Eternal, multi-dimensional warriors? Never heard of them. Ethereal travel? Come again? Astral planes? Isn’t that something New Agers whatchamacallit Transcendentalists in weird-smelling rooms do?

So I suppose EGG did think along those lines and perhaps this is where his concept of an "infinite Prime Material Plane” comes from?

And I must say, I kind of like the idea.

 

[ad_hoc]

There is a saying that adjectives don't add something they limit it.

A book could be any colour until it is a green book.

Yes, there can be infinite worlds in the prime material, but how is that of any use? When something can be anything it is also nothing.

Yes the outer planes limit things but in those limits they add details and themes for creating interesting stories.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Part of it too is that 'canon' has become the watchword of the day. For many people, they want all of their fiction to "make sense" in a long-lasting, point A to point B narrative. If there's a story happening and something is introduced that seems counter to the "rules" that have been set up in that story... it can't just be accepted out of hand, people want an explanation of WHY this "rule" was broken. There has to be a story reason so that the entire narrative remains sensical.

And people will argue and argue and argue about everything in order to try and put all these special things into narratives so that they make sense. Or they will argue about why things have to be excluded in order for the narratives, the 'canon' to remain making sense. "Dragonborn can't be in Greyhawk! They're not canon!" "Oh yeah? Well, what if..." and the argument continues on.

People just aren't willing to accept that all of our stories are just that... OUR stories. Instead, they expect that our stories are a PART of some grand tapestry of ONE interconnected story. A story that needs to be updated. A story that have to maintain a logic and purpose. And most importantly, a story that the person actually LIKES, because if they don't like the way someone else has messed with the story, then the person feels betrayed. Their time spent caring about and working out the 'canon' has been stomped upon.

Only problem is... the rest of us just don't care. And we are no longer beholden to maintain a 'canon' of any type if that 'canon' doesn't help us just play the game. So yeah, we're going to just stomp away and there's nothing you can do about it.

Who is "the rest of us" in this scenario? There's no way to know how many people care about narrative coherence holistically and who only cares about their own table. WotC certainly seems to be trying to make everything one story again, and as it's apparently a truism that as much money as can be milked is by far their most important priority, it seems that WotC believes a coherent franchise will lead to the most bank.

 

[ilgatto]

There is a saying that adjectives don't add something they limit it. A book could be any colour until it is a green book.

Is "unlimited" an adjective?

Yes, there can be infinite worlds in the prime material, but how is that of any use? When something can be anything it is also nothing.

Well, for one thing, it opens up the possibility that everything is possible for the PCs in “the Prime Material Plane”. If, for argument’s sake, one decides that the outer and inner planes are MotP creations after the Gygaxian fact, then it stands to reason to argue that a) they were created in the first place, b) that they can be created again, and c) that it can be you who does the creating.

For two things, I find it interesting to consider why and how MotP “canonized” things and how this sort of mirrored what our own group ended up doing.
“So we’ve all been telling these stories and making up people and worlds that have, um…, persisted. So how do we explain all of what’s been happening so far? How is it possible that people can go wherever they want whenever they want? Let’s see what we can work with and build on that. So, since it’s D&D, what do these books ‛ere have to say about all of this?”

Tertio, if we accept MotP as canon and assume that it came about as suggested here, I find it rather interesting to realize how it goaded us into this particular train of thought, strain of reality – how it limited us in our thinking. Now, since, MotP purports to explain reality and everything, and you abandon all of that, you effectively get back out of the rabbit hole the way you came and free yourself of the limits your way into it put on you – liberate yourself from your own way of thinking. That makes the possibilities endless and not just in a planar or dimensional way – for planes and dimensions do not exist any more.

Fourth…, well, fourth is actually fourth and fifth, each a topic I probably cannot discuss in ENWorld’s grandma’s parlor, unless she is, let us say, rather… latitudinarian about a number of things. So I suppose I shall have to limit myself to one of them I can probably get away with and that is that it has been said that the whole concept of “gods” sprouts from the minds of the people that believe in them as opposed to that they actually exist. So, if one of these deities is seen as the creator of our world and we actually created that deity, then I’d say we’ve come full circle.

Sixth, it allows for the notion that “planes” are actually “creations” rather than things that exist in their own right and therefore cannot be denied, which one could argue is actually true. This, in itself challenges the PCs’ concept of “reality” and allows them to “create” whatever they want – i.e., visit any plane they want to. Interestingly, that makes the concept of “planes” instantly superfluous – and with it the concept of “reality”.

So, in light of all this, if we accept MotP as canon for a “real fantasy world”, the step to considering that our own world is a creation of ourselves is easily made – IMHO, YMMV, WTL, etc., etc., and so on, and so on. Now, if one argues that the fantasy world – an imaginary world – is the creation of the PCs and that the real world – the real world – is likewise a creation of the people in it, then the distinction between a fantasy world and the real word is instantly gone.

This challenges the concept of what is “real” for both the PCs and the players, puts the concept of “self” in a wholly different light, compels them to think outside of the box, frees them from the limitations put on them by how the game evolved, and may ultimately allow them to do whatever they want at any given moment.

And that, I think, is a rather interesting concept.

For what are we doing when we are playing D&D? We are creating people in a world we create with our minds, which is as real to the PCs as the real world is for the players. I bet there’s a whole load of us who’d give a lot to actually be their at least one of their PCs, to live in the world they create, perhaps if only for a moment. Here we all are, sitting at a table, acting in a world that “doesn’t exist”, wanting to be there ourselves.

Perhaps one of the key concepts in all of this is that “we” are actually living in our own “creation” – the world as “we” know it. So if “we” can do anything and everything, can we then not, at some point, reach a stage where we actually become our PCs?


Hmm… I did say all of that out loud, didn’t I?

Perhaps it’s time for some coffee and to go find my cat.

Oh, and I may have to start converting my shed into a weird-smelling room.


On a more serious note [sic], I have created one of my worlds as per the principle that everything in it is the result of humans having created it, which includes themselves. Yes, it’s an anthropocentric world.

Does that mean there are no planes as per MotP? No elements? No gods? No reality? That the “Prime Material Plane” has no limits? Well…, yes and no and therefore no and yes.

So can the PCs do anything and everything they want in it? Nope. Not until the players realize that they are, in fact, their PCs – and forget about it at the same time.

Yes the outer planes limit things but in those limits they add details and themes for creating interesting stories.

Absolutely true. And I've run and played in many memorable adventures in the planes.

Edit: Last minute correction.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But then, we weren’t as well-versed in pulp fantasy and science fiction as EGG undoubtedly was – not American and therefore no history with all of that – so we had no notion of how the writers of the day dealt with such matters. Eternal, multi-dimensional warriors? Never heard of them. Ethereal travel? Come again? Astral planes? Isn’t that something New Agers whatchamacallit Transcendentalists in weird-smelling rooms do?

So I suppose EGG did think along those lines and perhaps this is where his concept of an "infinite Prime Material Plane” comes from?

It came from Moorcock - who isn't American.