The Confederate Flag

[billd91]

When you are the same as everyone else, there isn't any discrimination going on. A basic, fundamental requirement of going to a school is the ability to conduct classes in that language. If you can't do that, then you can't go. I suppose if you want to get hyper pedantic about it, that's discrimination of a sorts, but, not one that is recognized as bad in any way. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, barring French Canadians from learning English so that they could conduct business on an international stage or attend an English school.

And thus the forces that extinguish distinct languages and cultures are emboldened. Hussar, this is an extremely privileged perspective on the differences in language. It's easy to think the impact of dominant modes of economic participation is non-discriminatory when you're natively part of the dominant mode. But when you're not, it's probably a lot easier to see how exclusionary it really is. They must change to interact with your side. They must use a language that is secondary to them, not primary. Their native forms of communication are not suitable for international commerce, for participation. They must adopt yours. It may be in their economic self-interest to do so, but let's not pretend that it's non-discriminatory or entirely benign.

 

[Hussar]

And thus the forces that extinguish distinct languages and cultures are emboldened. Hussar, this is an extremely privileged perspective on the differences in language. It's easy to think the impact of dominant modes of economic participation is non-discriminatory when you're natively part of the dominant mode. But when you're not, it's probably a lot easier to see how exclusionary it really is. They must change to interact with your side. They must use a language that is secondary to them, not primary. Their native forms of communication are not suitable for international commerce, for participation. They must adopt yours. It may be in their economic self-interest to do so, but let's not pretend that it's non-discriminatory or entirely benign.

You misunderstand. It's not a case of doing business with the English world. That's not it at all. I gave a perfectly normal example - a Chinese, German and French business person are at a conference in Japan. What language are they going to use?

Whose dominating here? There's not one English speaker in the bunch, but, guess what? English is the language of problem solving. It's the Lingua Franca of the business world. Not because the Americans or the British are forcing it, but because the rest of the world is adopting it. What else would you expect? That every international business must be multilingual polyglots capable of speaking to anyone, anywhere?

That's ridiculous.

This isn't a case of cultural imperialism. The English speaking world isn't driving this. There's a reason that China is now the number one English speaking country in the world. More people speak English (of some degree of proficiency) in China than any other nation in the world. This is what globalism has caused. It's unreasonable to expect all the countries that do business with China to learn Chinese - the writing is far, far too difficult, never minding that trying to write in Chinese on a computer is bloody difficult as well. But China does business with, well, everyone. So, the Chinese have adopted English as the business language.

Cultural imperialism means that the imperial culture forces linguistic changes all the way through the culture. No one is doing that. People aren't advocating English speaking at home or even in their home culture. However, the pragmatism of global business means that if you want to do business with fifteen different countries, you need a Lingua Franca, and, that's become English.

There's a fantastic TED talk about this:

[video]youtube=https://youtu.be/ZpILR21GWao[/video]

 

[Umbran]

Yet, all my students study English. Why would that be?

Because, post-WWII, the USA has until recently dominated the economic and political landscape of the planet. Because we consume resources and goods like mad, and you want to speak in the language of the people who are buying your stuff.

 

[Janx]

And thus the forces that extinguish distinct languages and cultures are emboldened. Hussar, this is an extremely privileged perspective on the differences in language. It's easy to think the impact of dominant modes of economic participation is non-discriminatory when you're natively part of the dominant mode. But when you're not, it's probably a lot easier to see how exclusionary it really is. They must change to interact with your side. They must use a language that is secondary to them, not primary. Their native forms of communication are not suitable for international commerce, for participation. They must adopt yours. It may be in their economic self-interest to do so, but let's not pretend that it's non-discriminatory or entirely benign.

I'm sure the wagon wheel maker guy felt the same way when folks stopped using wagons and started driving cars. Why should he change his livelihood? What must HE learn a new trade?

I'm sure a lot of bad things were done that made English become the top dog of languages for business. But like taking land from native americans, that ship has sailed.

I've done business with India, China, and Taiwan and they all spoke English with me when I got on the phone. Nobody requested translators, that was what they spoke when the phone rang. We didn't make them do it, but somehow, they decided long before I was relevant that English was what they'd learn to talk to other businesses.

Yeah, that was convenient for me. If they didn't speak english, we were prepared to hire folks on our side who spoke their language. So let's not bandy the Discrimination card, shall we? Ain't nobody getting hurt except folks who don't get that you have to go along to get along sometimes. If you ain't hurting or stealing, that ain't wrong.

If you live in Quebec, and you want to do business with another country, maybe you should learn English. Not because you're giving up your culture. Or giving in to another power. But because it is always simpler to adapt yourself than it is to expect the other party to accommodate you.

That's what the Asians and the Indians did. They anticipated doing business with America, and they recruited folks who spoke English so they could make taking on business with the US much easier. There are plenty of bi-lingual Americans who became that just for business as well. I didn't need to because by the time I got to the table, the other guys spoke my language.

 

[Janx]

Because, post-WWII, the USA has until recently dominated the economic and political landscape of the planet. Because we consume resources and goods like mad, and you want to speak in the language of the people who are buying your stuff.

Exactly. I wouldn't ascribe evil intent like Discrimination to it. It's just economics. At some point, some foreign suppliers figured out they'd get more business if they spoke English. And it spread.

Convenient for me. I could just as easily see Mandarin taking over. Heck, that's why Firefly features some Chinese in the mix. Why do you think the FB guy learned it?

 

[tomBitonti]

I've done business with India, China, and Taiwan and they all spoke English with me when I got on the phone. Nobody requested translators, that was what they spoke when the phone rang. We didn't make them do it, but somehow, they decided long before I was relevant that English was what they'd learn to talk to other businesses.

Actually, there was a time when peoples were forced to use English.

Several states, or regions thereof, are effectively bilingual, and that causes huge issues, when it would seem to be a natural outcome.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Umbran]

Exactly. I wouldn't ascribe evil intent like Discrimination to it.

Stop there for a second.

By no means is all discrimination "evil intent". A great deal of it is not by intent at all - it is by thoughtlessness. Like a great many harmful things humans do, it is done because we are not bothering to think much about what we are doing, including finding rationalizations that make what we are doing acceptable, because that's easier than being thoughtful.

This is why the word "privilege" came up - the people in the dominant position are at great risk of not realizing what they do to those who are not in their situation.

It's just economics.

It being "just economics" does not make it good*. This does not mean we don't need a lingua franca (we do), it means we ought to be cognizant of what that does to those who must adopt the language to get by, rather than be dismissive, and just toss off that others gotta suck up and deal, and we don't give a fig.

If you need a good economic reason for this, it is simple - being respectful means that we will tend to keep our economically dominant position for longer. The French (English, Spanish, and Russians) were not respectful, and their empires crumbled as those they were not respectful to threw them off. The lingua franca is not Franca because of this!



*Either ethically, or for our long-term socio-political position in the world. "Just economics" is by its nature a short-term thing - most economic considerations cannot be taken more than about 5 years ahead, if that. It is "just economics" that has had us dumping carbon dioxide into the air, and we see how that's turning out...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Because, post-WWII, the USA has until recently dominated the economic and political landscape of the planet. Because we consume resources and goods like mad, and you want to speak in the language of the people who are buying your stuff.

...plus there was that whole British Empire thing, precedant. When the sun does not set on territories you rule, your language will become dominant.

It just so happens that the economic force that supplanted them was a breakaway colony populated by those primarily speaking the same language.

 

[Kramodlog]

Are a majority of jobs in Quebec requiring English?

Today? No. Cause we voted laws that prohibited that. The laws are still needed to prevent a return to the previous situation. There are still sectors of the economy that are reluctent to this and need to be pushed. The financial sector is one of them.

We also need to push back so called "national institutions" like the Financial Market Authority Harper wants for Canada, as english would become a requirement and non-bilingual Québécois wouldn't get the service they pay for.

LOL. Ok, now I know you're just trolling. They kidnap Laporte, hold him agains his will, murder him when he tries to escape and you call that an "accident"? Wow.

You know there are differences between murder, manslaughter and involontary manslaughter.

 

[Ryujin]

In the late '80s I worked for a small computer manufacturer, that imported components from Hong Kong. My position was quality control and technical writer. The majority of my co-workers and the company's principals were from Hong Kong, with a few having come from Taiwan. Even back then I had absolutely no need to call in my co-workers for translation, when dealing with suppliers in the Far East. Everyone I spoke to or exchanged mail/faxes (this was before the internet had really taken off) had an adequate command of English.

.... until there was a product failure. Then they suddenly couldn't speak or read English.