The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

I just think that the first book heroes of the fallen lands was as a whole a really bad idea. First the Mage was more complicated than the original wizard. (Cleric about as complex) and then just having these 2 as a contrast to the 2 tooo much simplified martials. (Especially the knight having a pure damage encounter ability...) was a bad choice.

It pissed 4E fans off. And The wizard and Cleric helped no one.
It didn't piss me off, speaking as a 4e fan, and one of my players really enjoyed using the HotFL wizard.

I think the reason that the sales were bad was that 4e had already gotten people in an uproar and most people had already made up their mind that 4e was awful. If it had dropped a year after 4e's launch, it might have done what was intended- bringing back players who wanted a more traditional game- but it was simply too late.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Is there some reason every post you're making in here is so aggressive?
Well the Peterson interview I saw also made me really aggressive.


Imagine there was a 4E lifestream with the lead developers the day before. You know about it, even mention it.

Then you state in the interview "So we all know 4E was inspired by World of Warcraft" when the 2 people who you are interviewing said the day before in the same location that 4E was not inspired by world of warcraft.


This is either "I dont care what you say" or "I dont listen to what you say" and really disrespectfull... Of course the designers staid friendly and did not say much about that.
 

It didn't piss me off, speaking as a 4e fan, and one of my players really enjoyed using the HotFL wizard.

I think the reason that the sales were bad was that 4e had already gotten people in an uproar and most people had already made up their mind that 4e was awful. If it had dropped a year after 4e's launch, it might have done what was intended- bringing back players who wanted a more traditional game- but it was simply too late.
Maybe. It was an approach I much preferred to 4e’s launch… but by then, it was too little, too late. PF was a better use of my time and attention.
 

I'm pointing out that the "almost simultaneously" mention in the article isn't as wrong as you claimed it was. Your mention of counting 4E from when it was announced (in terms of 4E and Pathfinder being competitors) was a salient point; that's why I didn't disagree with you in my previous post.
It's still pretty wrong.

Like, believe me, I would love for it to be right! Because that would mean 4e never had any period where it truly stood on its own--it would mean that the edition wars were there from effectively the instant it happened. That would be incredibly useful to me, because then I could objectively say that the vast majority of haters never even gave 4e a chance, they just complained for two months (or whatever) and then immediately switched to PF1e, complaining all the while about a game they never played. Of course, many of the things people said then, and still say today, are conclusive proof that a lot of the complaints came from people who had never even read the rules. But it would be so useful to be able to point to an objective, unequivocal "see?! SEE?! PF1e strangled 4e in the cradle!"

But it didn't. 4e had at least a full year to stand on its own, and the response was very bad by the end of that year. I think there are a lot of reasons for this, and I think the article is about as fair as you can get from someone who still had a stake in the edition wars against 4e. That is, there are still several inaccurate or openly edition-war statements (like roles being "rigid", which is factually untrue!), but apart from those occasional incorrect jabs, the article is generally pretty good.

The more frustrating thing for me--other than the objectively inaccurate, edition-war-y statements--is that it glossed over many of what I consider the really important reasons why 4e stumbled so badly, giving them barely more than a sentence or two, while hyperfocusing on issues that were things people complained about a lot, but which weren't really that central. Again, in part because of people making complaints that had nothing to do with the content of the books.

Big example: Every "critic" and their sibling loves to say 4e explicitly said you could only use level-locked combats and difficulty class numbers, so levelling up became pointless, because you'd just face level 5 goblins instead of level 4 goblins the instant you hit level 5. This is objectively untrue, and I have quoted to many such "critics" all of the relevant passages (a total of four of them, I believe?) from the 4e DMG. Not only do the books not say you can only use level-locked combats, they explicitly and repeatedly say you SHOULD NOT only use combats at the party's level, but instead provide a healthy mix of many different combats, while providing specific cautionary advice for what can happen if you over-use either very low-level or very high-level fights, and for how to re-imagine extremely high-level fights as instead skill challenges to avoid being pasted. I don't think it's explicitly mentioned, but the most common example given by 4e fans for this is how the hobbits respond to the cave troll the Fellowship faced in Moria. They can't meaningfully harm it, their goal is to survive it, and Frodo straight-up benefits from one of his signature magic items, a literal Elven Chain Shirt he inherited from Bilbo--it's simultaneously one of the most cinematic battles of the early series (hence the films' focus on it!), and such a perfectly D&D-like situation up to and including magic items being involved, a rarity for LotR.

Like, it's literally right there, in the 4e DMG1: "If every encounter gives the players a perfectly balanced challenge, the game can get stale." (p 104) The books explicitly tell you not to do that, and give specific, clear advice for other things you can do instead. And yet it's on every "critic"'s lips anyway! Show them the evidence against it, and naturally, the goalposts move to a far weaker claim...but the "critic" still claims a victory nonetheless.

I suspect there's a reason for that. ;)
I mean, when there are objectively false statements also present, it's not hard to conceive of what that reason might be--and it's not one that would inspire a winky-face emoji.
 
Last edited:

jerry seinfeld coffee GIF
 

There is no 4e resurgence or “renaissance”. There was an old school one. When 4e came out.
Heh, yeah there is.

I'm not a huge fan, nor a huge hater, of 4E . . . but I've noticed over the past few months an uptick in folks talking about 4E, talking about playing 4E today, and using 4E design choices to inform current game design.

I mean, it's nowhere near as huge or influential as the OSR movement, but yes, 4E is coming back for a segment of our hobby.

And you know what, that's okay! Play what you want, enjoy what you love . . . and don't get so bent out of shape over what other folks are doing!

There is a lot of unnecessary hostility in this thread, like the OP called your mom something nasty. Relax kids, it's only a game!
 


Heh, yeah there is.

I'm not a huge fan, nor a huge hater, of 4E . . . but I've noticed over the past few months an uptick in folks talking about 4E, talking about playing 4E today, and using 4E design choices to inform current game design.

I mean, it's nowhere near as huge or influential as the OSR movement, but yes, 4E is coming back for a segment of our hobby.

And you know what, that's okay! Play what you want, enjoy what you love . . . and don't get so bent out of shape over what other folks are doing!

There is a lot of unnecessary hostility in this thread, like the OP called your mom something nasty. Relax kids, it's only a game!
Frankly?

It's because 5e is now a decade old, and is fundamentally built on the same foundations as a system that is over two decades old. Well, that and we had GSL 2: Electric Boogaloo via WotC's attempt to gut the OGL, which got a LOT of people very eager to not be under WotC's thumb anymore and to question the wisdom of all sorts of choices--including design choices--that were part of 5e. 20+ years of the same fundamental structure means most of the flaws are very well-known, and while 5e tried to fix some of them, it couldn't fix the biggest ones without...y'know...becoming unlike 3e.

I'd also say there's a subtler undercurrent element here. Very subtle, I should say; I don't think it's a strong effect, though perhaps it will grow with time.

That is, 4e is in many ways the edition gamers forgot. Not totally, of course. But both lapsed gamers that returned with 5e and brand-new gamers who've never seen an edition prior to 5e both have a tendency to think that, if 5e does something, 5e was the first place that did it. This is, of course, not true for a variety of things, e.g. "death saves" were lifted straight out of 4e. Even when it is true, there are many 5e structures that are...pretty obviously reinventing the wheel. It's taken a long time, but I've noticed a sort of mildly surprised curiosity arise out of some folks learning that some of the things they've really liked about 5e actually first appeared in 4e.

This fuels some of my eagerness to see 4e actually get included in the OGL. Of course, WotC has repeatedly walked back their original statements on that front and has been dead silent about it for at least a year now, so the pessimistic side of my soul is already fully ready to hear something like "we looked into it, but it turned out to be a far more complex issue than we originally thought" yadda yadda we won't do it and we're going to pretend it has nothing to do with corporate greed.
 

Frankly?

It's because 5e is now a decade old, and is fundamentally built on the same foundations as a system that is over two decades old. Well, that and we had GSL 2: Electric Boogaloo via WotC's attempt to gut the OGL, which got a LOT of people very eager to not be under WotC's thumb anymore and to question the wisdom of all sorts of choices--including design choices--that were part of 5e. 20+ years of the same fundamental structure means most of the flaws are very well-known, and while 5e tried to fix some of them, it couldn't fix the biggest ones without...y'know...becoming unlike 3e.

I'd also say there's a subtler undercurrent element here. Very subtle, I should say; I don't think it's a strong effect, though perhaps it will grow with time.

That is, 4e is in many ways the edition gamers forgot. Not totally, of course. But both lapsed gamers that returned with 5e and brand-new gamers who've never seen an edition prior to 5e both have a tendency to think that, if 5e does something, 5e was the first place that did it. This is, of course, not true for a variety of things, e.g. "death saves" were lifted straight out of 4e. Even when it is true, there are many 5e structures that are...pretty obviously reinventing the wheel. It's taken a long time, but I've noticed a sort of mildly surprised curiosity arise out of some folks learning that some of the things they've really liked about 5e actually first appeared in 4e.

This fuels some of my eagerness to see 4e actually get included in the OGL. Of course, WotC has repeatedly walked back their original statements on that front and has been dead silent about it for at least a year now, so the pessimistic side of my soul is already fully ready to hear something like "we looked into it, but it turned out to be a far more complex issue than we originally thought" yadda yadda we won't do it and we're going to pretend it has nothing to do with corporate greed.
Frankly?

I don't really care WHY 4E is making a small comeback, I've just noticed that it IS making a comeback. And I think that's cool, even if I never play 4E again or a 4E-derived game.

I mean, it IS interesting to discuss why 4E struggled back in the day, and the reasons that perhaps why it is seeing a resurgence today . . . but I don't really get the pushback from some folks in this thread.

I too struggled with OP's linked article and I think pointing out what he's got right and what he's got wrong is okay . . . but with significantly less hostility (not from you personally @EzekielRaiden, just in this thread overall).

I agree, I'd love to see a 4E SRD dropped into the Creative Commons alongside the 5E SRD (the OGL, I think, is dead). And I believe WotC when they say it's on the "to-do" list, but I won't be holding my breath waiting for it. Still, won't stop fans who are motivated from taking a page from the OSR playbook and creating their 4e-derived games anyway.
 


Remove ads

Top