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From OED:
D&D 5E The D&D rapier: What is it?
- Thread starter Ancalagon
- Start date
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Guest 6801328
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You forgot:
Katana, 1handed, 1dInfinity Slashing, 2dInfinity versatile, light, thrown, reach, counts as magic weapon, Advantage on all Charisma skills.
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
Gentlefolks, please, step this way, you will be welcome there : http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?529884-I-hate-rapiers-Do-you
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
Just to clarify, what do you mean when you talk about "fencing weapons"? The implements used in sport fencing are rather different from the actual weapons that they originated from.
More control and requires less strength to use effectively though. Plus better against armour.
That kinda gets into the discussion about "What do Hit Points represent?" Thrusting wounds are more likely to lead to eventual death in the absence of magical healing. However in terms of dropping or disabling a foe immediately; - as you are fighting them, cutting weapons have an advantage.
- Of course the rapier-type swords were still capable of cut-and-thrust, and the historical longsword is used to thrust - often more than to cut. So D&D's separation into distinct damage types by weapon doesn't fit that well either.
Why would anyone other than a Halfling use a longsword there? The Greatsword has the advantage of both higher damage, and being able to use the GWM feat with it.
The concept of a two-handed finesse weapon makes me a little twitchy from a realism point of view. I can't really see an issue in terms of game balance though.
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
So the Spanish blade and the bilbo? Is it because of the cup hilt? Because let me tell you, these weapons would handle *very* differently in a fight. The bilbo would be a good weapon for an adventurer to have. It's not too long and can deliver both trusts and cuts. The Spanish one... not so much. This is the point of this thread - what kind of rapier are D&D adventurers using.
(as an aside, the bilbo was thus name because of its city of origin, Bilbao, a basque city in Spain, so it's Spanish too)
@horwarth
Now you are making a kuddle muddle of this all!
An arming sword has a 1 handed grip it cannot be versatile.
A sabre / saber is a curved slashing weapon it is the Standard weapon of most cavalry from about 18th century onwards it is very related to scimitar, tulwar or messer, it has nothing to do with the olympic sports saber, which is a foil and has most resemblances to a smallsword.
A Greatsword with 2d8 in your Definition beats every other weapon damage wise, which i highly unrealistic and unbalancing the game mechanics . See it that way: worst damage short of a decapacitation you can do with a slashing weapon is cutting of a limb. And you can do this with almost any cutting sword. The damage you do with this action is the same, no matter the size of the tool behind it.
Your elven court blade is a nice gimmik, but for me i rather give the elves skill in rapier instead of D&D Long (aka RL bastard sword), and if elves need a special blade it rather be a moonblade which is some curved design especially.
The body of an elf is not very suited for swinging (slashing) weapon movement, if they would exist in the real world they would prefer stabbing weapons .
Now you are making a kuddle muddle of this all!
An arming sword has a 1 handed grip it cannot be versatile.
A sabre / saber is a curved slashing weapon it is the Standard weapon of most cavalry from about 18th century onwards it is very related to scimitar, tulwar or messer, it has nothing to do with the olympic sports saber, which is a foil and has most resemblances to a smallsword.
A Greatsword with 2d8 in your Definition beats every other weapon damage wise, which i highly unrealistic and unbalancing the game mechanics . See it that way: worst damage short of a decapacitation you can do with a slashing weapon is cutting of a limb. And you can do this with almost any cutting sword. The damage you do with this action is the same, no matter the size of the tool behind it.
Your elven court blade is a nice gimmik, but for me i rather give the elves skill in rapier instead of D&D Long (aka RL bastard sword), and if elves need a special blade it rather be a moonblade which is some curved design especially.
The body of an elf is not very suited for swinging (slashing) weapon movement, if they would exist in the real world they would prefer stabbing weapons .
Horwath
Legend
Greatsword already beats any weapon in damage.
I just bumped up damage of all non finesse weapons by one die step because of reasons stated earlier; dex is more powerfull than str and there should be a cost to a weapon that can be used in finesse way. Damage drop.
Elven courtblade could be a variation of elven 2handed blades from LotR: https://youtu.be/BjJvOm94W5U?t=147
about the length of longsword but lighter, shorter blade and longer handle for better and faster movement of weapon.
[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION], yes in the end longsword would be only for small characters or low level mooks as longsword would be 7-8 times cheaper than greatsword or you do not want to give CR 1/2 creatures ability to oneshot 1st level barbarian.
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
OK. Which leads me to ask the question again: What do you mean when you talk about "fencing weapons"? Once you take their use in modern sport fencing out of the equation, then you just have "weapons".
There are historical treatises detailing footwork, guards, parries etc for most weapons including poleaxes, arming swords, two-handed swords (lots), axes, chopping swords, katana and so on. Pretty much any weapon used in a martial art will have treatises about the system of use: - its part of what makes it a martial art.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I don't see why it needs to be any kind of historic "rapier" at all. Also, I think my solution's the best.
Making rapier the generic sword explains why it's an optimal choice for sword and board combatants whether based on STR or DEX.[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION]
You are right, and maybe i did express it a bit missleading. I meant historical weapons which were used mainly by repositioning tip and blade in a very fast way like rapier, and we would say that dexterity to do so would influence the combat transfered to D&D aka finesse.
While of course there are treatises which describe the very same Thing for two handed swords, in this case the strength of the user to catch the momentum when repositioning the weapon is of more importance.
Of course, IRL both "attributes" are needed to coordinate and to get force behind a blow or thrust.
Still in D&D Terms maybe an arming sword is able to be handled as a Finesse style weapon especially in duelling style, whereas any two handed wepon is certainly not, as certanly not any Kind of axe or mace where the source of the damage and the Options to parry or swing the weapon are totally different.
Poking someone with a thin object requires less strength than swingin a heavy object at someone. To find the gap in the armor to do so requires more dexterity than just hitting the armor with brute force to do concussive damage.
You are right, and maybe i did express it a bit missleading. I meant historical weapons which were used mainly by repositioning tip and blade in a very fast way like rapier, and we would say that dexterity to do so would influence the combat transfered to D&D aka finesse.
While of course there are treatises which describe the very same Thing for two handed swords, in this case the strength of the user to catch the momentum when repositioning the weapon is of more importance.
Of course, IRL both "attributes" are needed to coordinate and to get force behind a blow or thrust.
Still in D&D Terms maybe an arming sword is able to be handled as a Finesse style weapon especially in duelling style, whereas any two handed wepon is certainly not, as certanly not any Kind of axe or mace where the source of the damage and the Options to parry or swing the weapon are totally different.
Poking someone with a thin object requires less strength than swingin a heavy object at someone. To find the gap in the armor to do so requires more dexterity than just hitting the armor with brute force to do concussive damage.
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
Its a thin blade that deals d8 damage, designed by the gods or something. No technology makes sense in your average D&D game, given that it's been unnaturally era locked for hundreds if not thousands of years. You have Bob, a dwarven smith who has been making full plate armor for like 200 years... which is longer than it was even used in our world. And Bob's been doing it like his father, and his grandfather, 500 years before him! Why has no one invented gunpowder in this time?! Or, like, computers? Are the all the inhabitants of the D&D universe just idiots?
So pretend it's a marvel of elven engineering and let the small stuff go. Realism is a crappy hill to die on in D&D, because its a god awful simulation of anything if you examine it.
Lidgar
Gongfarmer
Nice job Ancalagon explaining the history and potential equivalents to what is the 5e rapier enigma.
My solution was to convert the rapier to an Elvish Leafblade (1h, slashing, finesse) and be done with the pointy stick.
This solution absolves my unnatural hatred towards the wapieaire quite neatly.
My solution was to convert the rapier to an Elvish Leafblade (1h, slashing, finesse) and be done with the pointy stick.
This solution absolves my unnatural hatred towards the wapieaire quite neatly.
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lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
To me, 1 point of damage on average over a shortsword is also a pretty weird hill to even notice, let alone die on, but I guess everyone has their pet cause.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be over here ranting that Identify no longer consumes the pearl. If you aren't ID'ing a magic item bby waving an owl feather over a bowl of wine while snorting some pearl dust, it ain't D&D.
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jgsugden
Legend
Rapiers are d8 finesse weapons that deal piercing damage.
Beyond that, it is whatever sounds fun to the players and DM. What it looks like is just fluff and that fluff should be aimed at what is fun. If the PCs picture a longsword - whatever. If they tell me their rapier is a carved dragon talon? Fine. If the dwarven rogue has a background that includes being a chef and he wants his "rapier" to be a meat clever? The idea will not be chopped, even if it doesn't make perfect sense.
D&D does not need to be a simulation. That being said, if you really enjoy looking at real history for inspiration for what your weapon should look like, GREAT. Do what makes a fun game for you. Just accept it when others do the same in a different way and decide their maul is actually a small statue.
Beyond that, it is whatever sounds fun to the players and DM. What it looks like is just fluff and that fluff should be aimed at what is fun. If the PCs picture a longsword - whatever. If they tell me their rapier is a carved dragon talon? Fine. If the dwarven rogue has a background that includes being a chef and he wants his "rapier" to be a meat clever? The idea will not be chopped, even if it doesn't make perfect sense.
D&D does not need to be a simulation. That being said, if you really enjoy looking at real history for inspiration for what your weapon should look like, GREAT. Do what makes a fun game for you. Just accept it when others do the same in a different way and decide their maul is actually a small statue.
Tony Vargas
Legend
At some point, maybe the 19th century, antiquarians took to calling some straight, single-edged cavalry weapons 'broadswords,' I have no idea why. In fantasy gaming 'broadsword' is sometimes taken, quite literally, as a big honking sword that's improbably wide across the blade, but not overlong, like a cut-down fantasy greatsword, I suppose.
Agreed.
I've always thought the rapier was fine for where it was damage wise. I think the design mistake was not taking all the martial weapon damages one scale further. Something like:
Rapier, Scimitar 1d8 (Finesse weapons)
Longsword, warhammer, flail, etc 1d10/1d12 versatile
Polearms 2d6 (Anything with 2 handed and reach)
Greatsword, Great Axe, Maul 2d8 (2 Handed Heavy weapons)
I'd never really thought about it but I guess you could throw 2 handed finesse weapons at 1d12 or 2d6, but still less then a normal strength based 2 handed weapon.
Finesse weapon 1d8/1d10 versatile
Finesse Polearm 1d10
2 handed Finesse weapon 2d6
My whole point here is, if the scale of weapon damage went one level higher, to 2d8, you have a greater range of damage options for weapons. It gives you the ability to easily scale finesse weapons by allowing them to be 1 damage dice less then a strength based equivilant and still maintain an edge over simple weapon damage.
Also, the rapier should be a light weapon. You should be able to hold a dagger in your offhand.
Instead, I would say the two weapon fighting should only require a light weapon in the offhand.
Rapier, Scimitar 1d8 (Finesse weapons)
Longsword, warhammer, flail, etc 1d10/1d12 versatile
Polearms 2d6 (Anything with 2 handed and reach)
Greatsword, Great Axe, Maul 2d8 (2 Handed Heavy weapons)
I'd never really thought about it but I guess you could throw 2 handed finesse weapons at 1d12 or 2d6, but still less then a normal strength based 2 handed weapon.
Finesse weapon 1d8/1d10 versatile
Finesse Polearm 1d10
2 handed Finesse weapon 2d6
My whole point here is, if the scale of weapon damage went one level higher, to 2d8, you have a greater range of damage options for weapons. It gives you the ability to easily scale finesse weapons by allowing them to be 1 damage dice less then a strength based equivilant and still maintain an edge over simple weapon damage.
Also, the rapier should be a light weapon. You should be able to hold a dagger in your offhand.
Instead, I would say the two weapon fighting should only require a light weapon in the offhand.
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Guest 6801328
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Exactly. It's 1 point of damage. So why even add this silly anachronism to the game? Dexterity is superior to Strength in every way...what's wrong with saying that if you want a Dex build you are going to do slightly less damage?
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