D&D 5E The Debate of "Canon" in D&D 5E

[robus]

The biggest turn-off to me of the Forgotten Realms is that they’re too well remembered!

The canon really bogs it down IMHO. I wish WotC would explore the rest of the world rather than muck around endlessly on the Sword Coast and surrounding environs. It’s all so stale and well trodden.

 

[Weiley31]

My version of "canon" in DND 5E is a mix of picked events and stuff from prior editions: For example in my version of 5E canon, the Silence of Lolth (from 3E) is currently happening at the SAME EXACT TIME the whole Drow Schism is happening with many Drow leaving the Underdark and forming their own faction of Seladrine Drow ala Baldur's Gate 3 when it comes to identifying terms between Lolth drow and non Lolth drow. Neverwinter is currently in ruins/being rebuilt by Degault Neverember with Phadalin from Dragon of Icespeak being one of the many frontiers being focused on to help establish new routes of trade in hopes of speeding up the Restoration. (Prior to that, the PC Neverwinter Nights version of the city is how it was before the Volcano erupted, along with it being ruled by King Nasher.) The 4E version of the Dawn War happened and explained how everything came to be with the gods. The Raven Queen (4E background with the better elements of the 5E version) took out Nerull and currently answers to Kelevemor while fulfilling her obligations to her duty begrudgingly.

Orcus has already died and been brought back, ala 2E, and is currently doing his own thing/while futzing around in Rappan Athuk. The Temple of Elemental Evil takes place before Return to Temple of Elemental Evil which is then followed by Princes of the Apocalypse years later. The Dead Three "exist" with Bhaal only in memory (since he's kinda dead, Myrkul being in the lower management position under the Raven Queen with Jergal handling the book keeping as a retiree deity.) Cyrus kinda does his own thing and pretty much avoids trouble unless he's hanging out with Myrkul OR a lower demi god variant of a revived Bhaal. But he's already a god at this point or lesser. Honestly I don't know what in the burning Hells is going on with the Dead Three. At this rate, they are seen more as upstart deity trouble makers at this point. The 2E Blood War is raging hard. Sigil is Sigil.

Currently the Times of Troubles haven't happened yet and I have no idea if the Spell Plague will occur or not. The current age of 5E is referred to as "The 5th Age" while prior editions were referenced as the 1st Age-4th Age.

And currently, while all this is happening, we have the two other Drow Factions watching how everything is progressing from afar.

The Current "Avengers: Endgame" of this canon version is Tyranny of Dragons while Descent into Avernus is the start of "phase 4" in a way taking place after it in terms of "major events."

Mask of the Betrayer hasn't happened yet. And we haven't heard much from Icewind Dale as the weather has suddenly, for some weird reason, gotten a lot more colder over on their end.

 

[schneeland]

The biggest turn-off to me of the Forgotten Realms is that they’re too well remembered!

The canon really bogs it down IMHO. I wish WotC would explore the rest of the world rather than muck around endlessly on the Sword Coast and surrounding environs. It’s all so stale and well trodden.

This is certainly true and probably one of the reasons, why WotC wants to limit the amount of canonic content to 5e releases.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Does anybody else find the concept of "canonicity" in D&D to be overwhelmingly silly? It's always been the DM's world first.

Maybe it's just me. I never played in any of the "official" settings growing up. I have no particular feelings of nostalgia (or anything else) for Greyhawk or the Realms or DragonLance. Planescape and Spelljammer and Dark Sun always struck me as too bizarre to pay attention to (although Dark Sun definitely has a cool aesthetic). Most other settings, like Birthright, just slipped beneath my notice. For my friends and I, worldbuilding new settings of our own creation was always half the point of setting up a D&D campaign in the first place. And in doing so, we certainly didn't pay any heed to the official "lore" of D&D, whether it came from core rulebooks or Sage Advice or Gary himself.

I've run an RPG set in an official, published setting just once in my life—Mystara—and honestly, I found the volume of information about the setting more hindrance than help. Reading up on a preexisting game-world takes so much more effort than just creating your own! So I certainly have no interest in ever using published settings again in the future.

Why the sudden surge of interest in canonicity? I don't want sound like a curmudgeon railing against the "kids these days," but it does seem that the sudden infusion of "new blood" into the hobby at large has come with some baggage—namely, internet fan-culture of the Tumblr/AO3/whatever else the young nerds these days use for online freeform roleplay and arguing about 'shipping wars variety. And then (mis)applying that perspective to D&D, in a way that previous generations of fans largely didn't (probably because they were too busy having canonicity arguments about Star Trek and the old Star Wars EU, but I digress).

 

[schneeland]

Unless you are thinking of everybody who didn't start in the mid 70s as "kids" that seems like a misconception to me - canon debates where already ongoing over here when I started in the early 90s. And probably a lot of the people who entered D&D in the recent years, probably care least about canon as they were directly not exposed to the old, now non-canonical content anyway, and potentially care a lot more about Exandria than the Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft or Dark Sun.

Plus, I think nobody has ever been convinced to change their mind by the statement "you know what, I think your opinion is stupid". But that may just be me

 

[Urriak Uruk]

This.

Back before the buy-out, I read a lot of the Star Wars novels, and at times I read some of the really bad ones even knowing that they were bad before I started, precisely because of their status as canon.

The moment Disney declared all that stuff non-canon was the moment I lost any interest in any of their new expanded universe - if they're content to wipe the slate at a stroke once, they can do it again, which means that every event is only ever conditionally "true", so why should I care? (And, indeed, they've already started retconning various bits of their sequel trilogy because they've decided they don't suit, so I'm increasingly happy with that choice.)

Similarly, I gave up on the Drizzt novels after "The Ghost King", but had been recently considering getting caught up in order to get a picture of the Realms as it is now. But since WotC have now declared everything in the novels, and everything pre-5e, to be non-canon, they've saved me a whole lot of time and money.

It sounds like Disney did you a favor, if you were making yourself read books you already knew were going to be bad.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I think your post was well thought out and very well written. But, when you ask this question, you are making an enormous leap from the logic you posted. It is way more than a handy tool. Lore equates to much of the setting, and setting helps dictate mechanics, rules, pacing, and even "how we play" the game. Therefore, as much as what all your other claims were right, this leap cannot be taken.

For you. And that is the lynchpin. If D&D canon suddenly had a plethora of space vehicles and laser guns in the PHB, it would change the game. I get that each table can create their own setting. But there is an implied acceptance of what D&D is. I have played in seven different states with many different groups - and while there were subtle differences, they all had strong ties to the "canon" that D&D has produced. This is true for young and older players. Call it Lord of the Rings-esque or Conan-esque or Elder Scrolls-esque or Greek Mythos-esque or Witcher-esque or Everquest-esque or WOW-esque or Wheel of Time-esque or Dragon Age-esque or even D&D Cartoon-esque, but all of these share a unique tie to our modern mental designs of fantasy. And while each of these are subtly novel, they are far more alike than different.
And that is why people don't just let canon go and believe it matters. Because they fear or don't care for a canon that might not have as strong of ties to the modern fantasy picture we have. Paradigms are a thing.

First, I'm totally surprised my thread has gotten resurrected. I probably care even less about canon now since I first wrote this.

Second, canon is like I originally said, a series of guidelines. Lore doesn't dictate anything; the DM does. If you want to use the canon to help your games, you can. If you don't like it, throw it away.

Your second part doesn't make much sense at all to me. You say D&D canon having space vehicles and laser guns would change the game... but D&D modules have had those things before. Did it change D&D? Maybe on the margins, sure. And even if they were plastered all over the PHB and DMG, doesn't mean I can't disallow that stuff in my game (or the reverse).

And what you've described about Lord of the Rings, Conan, Elder Scrolls all having more similarities than differences... I agree! Not sure what that has to do with canon though, as opposed to fantasy genre. Genre and canon are very different things.

 

[Eltab]

The Dead Three "exist" with Bhaal only in memory (since he's kinda dead, Myrkul being in the lower management position under the Raven Queen with Jergal handling the book keeping as a retiree deity.) Cyric kinda does his own thing and pretty much avoids trouble unless he's hanging out with Myrkul OR a lower demi god variant of a revived Bhaal. But he's already a god at this point or lesser. Honestly I don't know what in the burning Hells is going on with the Dead Three. At this rate, they are seen more as upstart deity trouble makers at this point.

I think the WotC staff had decided to make the Zhentarim a "playable organization" for 5e (along with Harpers, Emerald Enclave, et al) and to do that they had to remove the Evil gods who motivate / meddle in Zhent affairs. So Bane had to be demoted and de-powered. The other two gods I think were sucked in to this story because they needed a cooler in-world explanation that would not transparently summarize to 'being Bane sucks raw eggs, man'; booting three ex-mortals to demi-god status sounds better narratively.

Bane has been the most transmogrified deity in FR. At one point he had Strife in his portfolios, which makes no sense for somebody whose chief identity is the LE God of Tyranny. I preferred the 4e version: the god of tyranny who has beat up a few other gods and made them his subordinates. That is the kind of thing his essential nature would drive Bane to do.

 

[BookTenTiger]

My version of "canon" in DND 5E is a mix of picked events and stuff from prior editions: For example in my version of 5E canon, the Silence of Lolth (from 3E) is currently happening at the SAME EXACT TIME the whole Drow Schism is happening with many Drow leaving the Underdark and forming their own faction of Seladrine Drow ala Baldur's Gate 3 when it comes to identifying terms between Lolth drow and non Lolth drow. Neverwinter is currently in ruins/being rebuilt by Degault Neverember with Phadalin from Dragon of Icespeak being one of the many frontiers being focused on to help establish new routes of trade in hopes of speeding up the Restoration. (Prior to that, the PC Neverwinter Nights version of the city is how it was before the Volcano erupted, along with it being ruled by King Nasher.) The 4E version of the Dawn War happened and explained how everything came to be with the gods. The Raven Queen (4E background with the better elements of the 5E version) took out Nerull and currently answers to Kelevemor while fulfilling her obligations to her duty begrudgingly.

Orcus has already died and been brought back, ala 2E, and is currently doing his own thing/while futzing around in Rappan Athuk. The Temple of Elemental Evil takes place before Return to Temple of Elemental Evil which is then followed by Princes of the Apocalypse years later. The Dead Three "exist" with Bhaal only in memory (since he's kinda dead, Myrkul being in the lower management position under the Raven Queen with Jergal handling the book keeping as a retiree deity.) Cyrus kinda does his own thing and pretty much avoids trouble unless he's hanging out with Myrkul OR a lower demi god variant of a revived Bhaal. But he's already a god at this point or lesser. Honestly I don't know what in the burning Hells is going on with the Dead Three. At this rate, they are seen more as upstart deity trouble makers at this point. The 2E Blood War is raging hard. Sigil is Sigil.

Currently the Times of Troubles haven't happened yet and I have no idea if the Spell Plague will occur or not. The current age of 5E is referred to as "The 5th Age" while prior editions were referenced as the 1st Age-4th Age.

And currently, while all this is happening, we have the two other Drow Factions watching how everything is progressing from afar.

The Current "Avengers: Endgame" of this canon version is Tyranny of Dragons while Descent into Avernus is the start of "phase 4" in a way taking place after it in terms of "major events."

Mask of the Betrayer hasn't happened yet. And we haven't heard much from Icewind Dale as the weather has suddenly, for some weird reason, gotten a lot more colder over on their end.

I'm really curious, is this just the canon you like, or the canon you actually use when you play?

If it's the latter, how do you actually use it? Does it effect the adventures you use or create? How do you communicate this canon to the players? Or is it more an invisible background just influencing how you run your game?

 

[Weiley31]

I think the WotC staff had decided to make the Zhentarim a "playable organization" for 5e (along with Harpers, Emerald Enclave, et al) and to do that they had to remove the Evil gods who motivate / meddle in Zhent affairs. So Bane had to be demoted and de-powered. The other two gods I think were sucked in to this story because they needed a cooler in-world explanation that would not transparently summarize to 'being Bane sucks raw eggs, man'; booting three ex-mortals to demi-god status sounds better narratively.

Bane has been the most transmogrified deity in FR. At one point he had Strife in his portfolios, which makes no sense for somebody whose chief identity is the LE God of Tyranny. I preferred the 4e version: the god of tyranny who has beat up a few other gods and made them his subordinates. That is the kind of thing his essential nature would drive Bane to do.

Plus at least all three have an explanation for why they got demoted: Bhaal got killed by Cyrus who jacked his Portfolio, Myrkul got ganked by Midnight/Mystara, and Bane got taken out via Double T.K.O. via Torm.