D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

Thomas Shey

Legend
I would consider that stuff needing spot-fixes at best, rather than part of (again, as described) a "review...of the entire system top to bottom," which Lanefan has doubled down on that meaning exactly what it sounds like, calling it a "comprehensive review" and specifically expecting some things in a "needs-a-complete-rebuild" category.

The "math-fix" feats are an area I think most players just had a different understanding of how things were supposed to work. The designers wanted fights to get (mathematically) harder at high levels, so players would have to make use of their more-powerful abilities and synergistic effects in order to rise to the challenge. IOW, the designers were specifically trying to avert the "treadmill" effect in a very mild way. Instead, people reamed them for it, so they relented in the only way that could preserve their original intent while letting people address it if they wanted to.

Most feats weren't that bad--nothing nearly as bad as Pathfinder's Death or Glory, for example, and AFAIK nothing hitting the lows that 3.5e did--though I grant that there were some that just weren't really worth it 99% of the time. I don't, personally, consider that a breakdown of the system. There should be some value in learning what are good feats and what are mediocre feats, but there shouldn't be gaps like the difference between 3.5e Natural Spell and 3.5e Toughness.

I don't find any value whatsoever in forcing people to learn how to screen out the dogs in trait selection. The only virtue 4e had in this area was that it had baked in capability to swap out if you did do that.

So you need to have a totally comprehensive, encyclopedic knowledge of everything contained in the entire game before you even begin preparing to play? That's patently ridiculous. More importantly, it will guarantee the eventual death of the TTRPG hobby. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Every time I haven't had a pretty good gestalt understanding of a game system before starting to run it, I've come to regret it. Every. Single. Time.

It was satire.

Not something I consider any better an idea that hyperbole in online discussion.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Where I say give me mechanics that do the specific things that need doing in that instance, and if it ends up being complex (particularly on the DM-side) then so be it.

As a player, sure, I want it simple. Mechanics get in the way of roleplaying.

But as a DM, I want it as complex as it needs to be to give granularity in resolution and at least vaguely wave at reflecting reality - or at least being able to reflect the in-game reality - halfway consistently. Therefore, I-as-DM expect to be laregly dealing with those complexities so the players don't have to bother with them as much.

What gets sacrificed, every time, on the twin altars of simplicity and speed are granularity and detail; and while it's also certainly possible to go too far in the other direction and end up with a game that loses itself in details, 4e and 5e in their rush to simplify have IMO lost a lot - as in, far too much - of what makes play interesting.
Interesting to who? The DM? The Players? The Table? Because, AFAIC, the loss of that granularity and details has resulted in a massive improvement in game play. No more one hour of fun packed into four hours.

Every iteration of D&D has filed off all that granularity to some degree, from going from 1e to 2e and losing the weapon vs armor tables. Actually, there's a pretty good analogy of why simplicity is a good thing. In 1e, if you actually played by the rules, it was largely impossible to actually run combat. There were a thousand little rules - who had higher ground, if the target has a shield or not, never minding trying to determine the weapon vs armor for monsters that didn't wear armor but still had an AC or had an AC that wasn't on the table (as in anything less than a 2 AC). It was a huge mess.

Now, most of the time, no one actually used the rules. They used something that probably vaguely looked like the rules, but, they certainly weren't following the actual rules in the book. So, 2e comes along and simplifies a lot of the rules. Shields just work. Still some situational modifiers like higher ground, but, the weapon vs armor table is shrunk down to three types - piercing, bludgeoning, slashing. Then 3e comes along. Weapon vs armor goes away because, again, it was too hard to use in play - there was no mention of what to do with monsters that don't wear armor so, largely, the rules just got ignored. Also, different damages vs size of target goes away too because, well, it's a PITA (is something 7 feet tall large or medium?) and led to all sorts of rules wonkiness (why, exactly, is a longsword twice as effective against a giant as an axe?). 5e takes it even further - no more flanking bonuses, movement calculations don't use 1: 2:1 counting. That sort of thing.

There are very, very good reasons why we reject complexity in the game. It really didn't add anything to the game because so many times, any time you had these complex little sub-systems, the sub-systems were either used incorrectly or flat out ignored.

Which rolls us back around to the magic system. I get it. I really, really do. I REALLY would like to do a low magic D&D campaign. It is possible, but, requires a huge amount of buy in from the players and largely means you're going to chop out 3/4 of the game. Which, at that point, it's probably better to run a different system because, well, it will just work better. But trying to add back in all this granular complexity in order to make the game more "interesting" just doesn't work. We've got decades of game play that proves that it didn't work. If it did work, we'd still be doing it. So, we simplify. Which, in 5e, means leveraging the spell system. Anything that's not 100% mundane becomes a discrete spell (or something that is exactly like a spell in all ways, but, just not called a spell) with a discrete rules package that is very easy to reference in play.
 


Hussar

Legend
I don't know if this one you favor, but you have professed a love for 4e before. It is my favorite edition, but it needed a lot of debugging. I mean it had mountains of errata in is lifespan and that is not evening getting to the house rules we used to match our playstyle.
Heh, there's debugging and then there's rewriting entire sections of the rules to make them work.

4e needed a lot of debugging. As in it had bugs that didn't really stop the game from being played, but, did detract from the experience. And, to be fair, 5e didn't need a lot of that - the underpinnings of the math isn't too bad. But, because we're not allowed to give specific advice or have specific rules lest we step on the whole "rulings not rules" thing, 5e does require a LOT of oversight because there just aren't any rules or the rules are very vague.

I mean a perfect example came up in our last session. The group, in order to infiltrate a sahuagin underwater base used polymorph to turn into octopuses. Now, the spell says that you keep your personality, but, you have the intelligence of your new form. Can the PC's actually achieve their goal using polymorph or not? 100% DM interpretation.

If the PC polymorphs the fighter into a T-Rex (or a giant ape), will the PC attack allies? Why not? It now has the brain the size of a walnut. Basically, it's a shark on legs. Why would it distinguish friend from foe?

Again, 100% DM adjudication. Not impossible, of course, but, if I was 14 years old again, and a new DM, I can imagine that that sort of thing gets handled ... less than perfectly the first time around.
 

dave2008

Legend
I agree with your post mostly, but...
If the PC polymorphs the fighter into a T-Rex (or a giant ape), will the PC attack allies? Why not? It now has the brain the size of a walnut. Basically, it's a shark on legs. Why would it distinguish friend from foe?
...I had to comment on this one. A T-Rex had a brain roughly half the size of a human: T-Rex was no bird brain You can find many articles about the large brain of a T-rex, but the linked one claims they were approximately as smart as chimps (which have brains 1/3 the size of humans). I don't think we can determine that since the structure is so different, but the point is T-rex was fairly smart.
 

Hussar

Legend
I agree with your post mostly, but...

...I had to comment on this one. A T-Rex had a brain roughly half the size of a human: T-Rex was no bird brain You can find many articles about the large brain of a T-rex, but the linked one claims they were approximately as smart as chimps (which have brains 1/3 the size of humans). I don't think we can determine that since the structure is so different, but the point is T-rex was fairly smart.
Fair enough. Actually, that does bring up the point rather well. This is exactly what I'm talking about. D&D gives a T-Rex an intelligence of 2. An ape as 6. So, how do we adjudicate? Is that T-Rex actually fairly smart - smarter than a dog, or is it a shark on legs? Again, the point isn't that it's impossible to adjudicate or that a DM could never come up with an answer, but, rather, because of the vagaries of the rules, things like this can really bog the game down.

I can totally see 14 year old me getting into an argument with 14 year old me the player about how my Polymorphed Fighter in T-Rex form should act. :D

I get that people don't like it when the rules are clear, but, there are some pretty distinct advantages to clear rules.
 

dave2008

Legend
Fair enough. Actually, that does bring up the point rather well. This is exactly what I'm talking about. D&D gives a T-Rex an intelligence of 2. An ape as 6. So, how do we adjudicate? Is that T-Rex actually fairly smart - smarter than a dog, or is it a shark on legs? Again, the point isn't that it's impossible to adjudicate or that a DM could never come up with an answer, but, rather, because of the vagaries of the rules, things like this can really bog the game down.

I can totally see 14 year old me getting into an argument with 14 year old me the player about how my Polymorphed Fighter in T-Rex form should act. :D

I get that people don't like it when the rules are clear, but, there are some pretty distinct advantages to clear rules.
So what should the rules say here?
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
So what should the rules say here?
Either that you retain your intellect when polymorphed, or state that, while you can tell the difference between allies and enemies, you are limited to either attacking foes, or fleeing from danger. Maybe with a caveat allowing an ally to direct your actions by making an Animal Handling check?
 

dave2008

Legend
Either that you retain your intellect when polymorphed,
Well that is clearly not what the want, so I think that is off the table.
or state that, while you can tell the difference between allies and enemies, you are limited to either attacking foes, or fleeing from danger. Maybe with a caveat allowing an ally to direct your actions by making an Animal Handling check?
I don't personally see how those limitations are helpful, but maybe they are to some. I like the animal handling check idea, but I am not fond of taking agency away from the player.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Either that you retain your intellect when polymorphed, or state that, while you can tell the difference between allies and enemies, you are limited to either attacking foes, or fleeing from danger. Maybe with a caveat allowing an ally to direct your actions by making an Animal Handling check?
Or you like your intelligence like the spells says and take your chances? Do we have to look for every opportunity to make the game easier on the PCs?
 

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