D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Underman]

Herd of dinosaurs. That's be pretty mythic, in kind of a primitive way.

Barney the Dinosaur!

As big as the Tarrasque but more annoying.

Purple furry dinosaur, talking animal, impossibly big, inspired by a mix of real-life primeval and modern day children's TV show, no explanation required, now that's as mythic as it gets

I got no pun though

 

[Tony Vargas]

That's one helluva class ability!

Hey, you wanted mythic. Though, the only myth like that I can think of off the top of my head is Orpheus, and he sang his way out of the underworld rather than fighting... :shrug:

 

[WarlockLord]

Two points:

1) In my example, the 10th level fighter does not dodge the evil magic. He fails his save and stands dead-center in a blast of magic fire --which is capable of melting steel-- taking maximum damage.

Without so much as falling down unconscious.

2) Action movie protagonists set the bar for realism rather low (about six feet underground, I'd say). And shrugging off the 100' fall/big-ass explosion moves the protagonist from John McClane territory into Wolverines', donctcha think?

As for one: that's not how hit points are supposed to work. Hit points are supposed to be a little bit of toughness but mostly luck or plot powers. He didn't get out of the way, his Plot Powers protected him. This is somehow more believable rather than giving fighters the dreaded anime weeaboo magic.

And your example fighter clearly has some reality warping powers. After all, if it can melt steel, how is he advancing on the necromancer if the fire slagged his armor and weapon he's carrying? How is this guy surviving the burning death?

I'm not saying this is realistic by any means, I'm just saying that it's considered mundane because the alternative is crazy crap like phasing out of reality. Like the heroes hiding from an explosion behind Coke machines.


Two, people do survive that sort of crap. Maybe not being able to fight perfectly, but it's somewhat plausible that a dude could crawl up after being burned and stab another dude. Plausible IRL? No, but maybe with action movie logic.

TL;DR: The 'demigod' D&D fighter is completely unimpressive compared to what a wizard can do. That's why he's mundane.

 

[Neonchameleon]

JamesCourage hit the nail on the head for me.

I want high level fighter's to be Batman; peak human in endurance, strength, and agility and able to do things most people would kill themselves trying to. I don't want them to be Superman; an all powerful entity who exceeds man in all ways. When Batman "flies", he uses grappling hooks and a cape glider to zip and weave through the sky. When Superman flies, gravity gives way to his alien power. When Batman sees though walls, its due to high tech abilities in his cowl, Superman uses his magic X-ray vision. Batman fights thugs by dodging bullets (maybe deflecting a shot with his armor) and uses his martial arts training to defeat them. Superman takes the shots point-blank in the chest and then punches them with Super-strength. I can buy someone fighting dragons to become Batman, I can't buy them becoming Superman.

But as I've said before in this thread: Batman isn't a fighter. He's a brawny rogue. Especially on the JLA.

Fighters are the biggest and toughest people on the team and get into toe to toe slugging matches. Superman is the JLA fighter. (And is about the only JLA member stronger than a high level D&D wizard - and then only if he speed-blitzes). If Batman tries to take JLA enemies in a pounding slugfest he loses. Badly.

Having rogues behaving like Batman and walking the line with plausible deniability isn't a problem. Having big smashy humans trying to take the role of the incredible hulk just leads to Darwin Awards.

You can not behave like a fighter and be a mortal in a high level D&D universe unless you're borrowing Iron Man's armour and it's the armour doing most of the heavy lifting.

The simple "I hit it"/"I take the blow" approach is fundamentally incompatable with an ordinary human trying to fight a large dragon. ("I sneak and then shank it in the balls when it is looking the other way" is not).

 

[JamesonCourage]

But as I've said before in this thread: Batman isn't a fighter. He's a brawny rogue.

Disagree; I think he's in a point-buy system. I don't think he translates to any D&D class well.

Fighters are the biggest and toughest people on the team and get into toe to toe slugging matches. Superman is the JLA fighter.

I think the problem here is that you're comparing all the Justice League members to one another; what people in the thread are saying is "take Batman, and make the Fighter that level of mundane: awesome." What they're not saying is "make Fighters be like Superman!" In fact, they're not mentioning him, or comparing him to other Justice League characters (or other superheroes at all). Batman is specifically being used as a comparison to the level of awesome mundane people might be okay with. Again, though, it's all taste, but the comparison to the rest of the JLA misses the point.

The simple "I hit it"/"I take the blow" approach is fundamentally incompatable with an ordinary human trying to fight a large dragon. ("I sneak and then shank it in the balls when it is looking the other way" is not).

I don't think that's true, as that's determined by attack bonus, AC, damage, and hit points. If the Fighter has a way to deal with the dragon (ranged attacks to bring it down, or the dragon must land to fight [as most dragons seem to in fiction]), then the dragon can very easily lose a fight to the Fighter. That might stretch your suspension of disbelief, but it might not to others. Again, all taste. Personally, if I saw Batman take out a dragon, I think I'd accept it without balking at it. Just preference. As always, play what you like

 

[Manbearcat]

But as I've said before in this thread: Batman isn't a fighter. He's a brawny rogue. Especially on the JLA.

Fighters are the biggest and toughest people on the team and get into toe to toe slugging matches. Superman is the JLA fighter. (And is about the only JLA member stronger than a high level D&D wizard - and then only if he speed-blitzes). If Batman tries to take JLA enemies in a pounding slugfest he loses. Badly.

Having rogues behaving like Batman and walking the line with plausible deniability isn't a problem. Having big smashy humans trying to take the role of the incredible hulk just leads to Darwin Awards.

You can not behave like a fighter and be a mortal in a high level D&D universe unless you're borrowing Iron Man's armour and it's the armour doing most of the heavy lifting.

The simple "I hit it"/"I take the blow" approach is fundamentally incompatable with an ordinary human trying to fight a large dragon. ("I sneak and then shank it in the balls when it is looking the other way" is not).

Precisely. Fighters (regardless of their archetype) are direct, overt force applied to a problem. Batman is anything but direct, overt force. The problem with the DnD Fighter is finding a way to make direct, overt force be compatible with genre expectations, mechanically interesting, relevant and viable when compared to his magical counterparts in mid and high level play (in the combat pillar primarily but it would be nice if he was at least marginally relevant at exploration and social as well), while not offending the sensibilities of the sub-section of the player base that wants to keep his deployable resources in-line with their expectations of real world musculoskeletal kinesiology/physics/bio-physics (while he fights dragons -flight - and giant spiders and other creatures with exoskeleton - exoskeleton size - that are unbounded by his design limitations). The stock Fighter as a genre-tailored, lower powered Incredible Hulk or Superman at mid/high level play in the core would cause outrage.

I have no idea how to square all of these circles without accepting that the mid/high level disparity between fighters and their caster equivalents will persist. As I said upthread, perhaps it can be achieved in the core by an Advanced Theme or two, available only to the Fighter class, that is secreted away from other Themes and clearly labeled HAZARDOUS MATERIAL so that it can exist without infecting people's games who do not want it. Its either that or it has to go in a module or a supplement.

 

[Minigiant]

I still go by the belief that fighters level from newly recruited Robin or Bucky to Hawkeye/Green Arrow to Captain America and eventually Marvel's Thor or Flightless Wonderwoman.

That is how my suspension goes.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Precisely. Fighters (regardless of their archetype) are direct, overt force applied to a problem. Batman is anything but direct, overt force.

Kind of. Batman's greatest weapon is his mind, true. But he often engages in brute force and overt fear to solve his problems. (This is kind of all a tangent anyways, as people don't want the Fighter class to actually be Batman; they are saying the acceptable level of "mundane" that they'd be willing to see.)

As for Batman applying direct force:[sblock]
Batman vs Red Hood (the second Robin, so someone fairly Batman-like himself). He sets Red Hood up at the start (trash can --> lasso). He pushes him off a building and falls with him onto another building, but lands it with no damage. He fights immensely well (especially at the end... "it's over!"), and is obviously capable of disarming (jacket) and dazing. When Red Hood starts to "fly" away, he's fast enough to go with him. He's obviously extremely athletic (better than anyone could be). His physical stats are obviously all great (he can even take a beating).
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3VkJzsCVg]Batman vs. Red Hood - YouTube[/ame]

In this clip, Batman and Nightwing (the first Robin, so someone fairly Batman-like himself) fight someone with superpowers. Batman takes him head on a few times, but is highly mobile (this is also good for a Fighter). He can dodge attacks well (good AC). He is, once again, amazingly athletic (jumping over the box cars when thrown). He's very perceptive. He sets up the bad guy for hits (boomerang shot). He knows where to fight. He can determine weak points, and exploit them.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0xCVjJRhis]Batman & Nightwing vs Amazo - YouTube[/ame]

In this clip, Batman takes out of Beast of Apokolyps. How? Don't know. But we know he does, and that doesn't kill my suspension of disbelief.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBsI5gep2Dw&feature=relmfu]Batman vs the Beast of Apokolyps - YouTube[/ame][/sblock]
Batman bests most of his villains, even Killer Croc and Bane, using brute force. He does think on his feet, but giving the Fighter some Batman-level physical prowess is what was mentioned on the "mythic" front, not "make the Fighter exactly like Batman!" But, giving the Fighter some Batman-like traits (fear, athletics, knowledge of weak points, terrain exploits, reactive actions, set-up attacks, status effects, good AC, highly mobile, very perceptive, etc.) are good things to have.

Again, it's not "the Fighter should model Batman" completely. It's more along the lines of "the Fighter should physically be capable of what Batman is physically capable of."

 

[Manbearcat]

Kind of. Batman's greatest weapon is his mind, true. But he often engages in brute force and overt fear to solve his problems. (This is kind of all a tangent anyways, as people don't want the Fighter class to actually be Batman; they are saying the acceptable level of "mundane" that they'd be willing to see.)

<SNIP>

Again, it's not "the Fighter should model Batman" completely. It's more along the lines of "the Fighter should physically be capable of what Batman is physically capable of."

Ok. That's fair enough.

I've seen that archetype used before so I've always assumed that considering how loaded the Batman archetype is with indirect tactics including guerilla, covert, subterfuge, misdirection, logic, tech (that I would say define him at least as much as martial prowess...and I'm a huge Batman nerd so I'm well versed in his history)...that people actually meant what they wrote as "like Batman" (without preconditions or caveat...as you have now done) presupposes the "indirect" aspects of the character as well as the "direct." If people want to include only martial prowess and not load the archetype with superfluous elements that they don't mean to include (and don't bother to caveat), then they're better off using Captain America lest they risk the conflation of archetypes or inclusion of superfluous elements that do not apply.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Actually, I'd be quite happy with the Batman route as one option for an upper-end mundane, pushing mythic fighter. It means that the character can be physically direct when it fits, but isn't built to solve every problem with a weapon. If you've got plenty of options (i.e. not merely intimidate and ride skill) in interaction and exploration, then being able to hit hard and smart is probably enough for combat.

I'd like some other avenues explored too, but that one wouldn't be a bad place to start with to test out the hooks for later options.