The economics of Continual flame

[jasper]

This scenario only makes sense if continual flame was a new technology.

Besides, if the candle makers have a union... so can the wizards

bang bang bang the invisible servant bangs the gavel.
Mage Anacalagon " the first meeting of union 666 Wizards of Waterdeep will come to order! where is everyone?"
Psuedodragon Famailiar, "they took busy playing with their wands! Can I now eat the buffet?"

 

[Oofta]

A couple of thoughts on this based on other people's responses.

First, the obection of the candlestick makers. Ya'll make it sound like this is some new, disruptive product. There's no reason to believe people haven't been creating continual light objects since magic was discovered. If there's a better mousetrap you may be able to suppress it for a while, but for centuries? I don't think so. Especially considering how incredibly more efficient and safe a continual flame would be compared to the alternatives. Candles and lamps are expensive when you consider replacement costs. If new technology never took hold we'd still be living in caves.

Second, availability. Continual flame basically lasts forever. That continual flame cast on a rock 500 years ago? Still going strong. Even if people are living hand-to-mouth in current times, there were no relatively affluent periods in your history? Even if a relative handful are created every year it still adds up over time. Some would be lost to the sands of time of course but grave robbers recovery specialists could find them, dust them off, and sell them.

Third, the luxury car comparison. As pointed out, it's not that expensive relative to average wages. Yes, you may have to scrimp and save for a few years but then you have a light. Forever. Also remember that a gold piece in D&D is not the equivalent of a Spanish doubloon. Historically most gold piece coins were dime size. Gold also seems to be devalued relatively speaking.

In addition, light is such a valuable resource that entire villages in third world countries will pool money together to get a communal rechargeable light that they will share. I don't see why continual flame would be any different.

Last but not least, unless you're running a very low magic campaign, the default assumption seems to be that magic is fairly ubiquitous. Magic items created for adventurers would likely be far, far less common than magic items used and desired every day by normal citizens.

 

[delericho]

Temples could sell them too to the faithful - they might be hesitant to give magic to the masses, but same as a potion of healing, what harm could *light* do?

It's world-changing, probably moreso than any of the plots concocted by any of the BBEGs in any of the published 5e adventures to date.

Don't believe me? Try going a week without any artificial light.

Having continual flames everywhere may be too "magical" for the setting you want to create. But the economics tell us that they should be all over the place.

You're not wrong, but the problem with that line of thinking is the can of worms it opens. If you really apply D&D magic logically, it makes a mockery of a pseudo-medieval world that is generally assumed.

 

[5ekyu]

It's world-changing, probably moreso than any of the plots concocted by any of the BBEGs in any of the published 5e adventures to date.

Don't believe me? Try going a week without any artificial light.



You're not wrong, but the problem with that line of thinking is the can of worms it opens. If you really apply D&D magic logically, it makes a mockery of a pseudo-medieval world that is generally assumed.

One of the key details of any setting for a game being run is how the magic alters society including but far beyond the short list of "pc centric" spells listed in the PHB.

I often mention various effects existing, often as rituals, that are not in the PHB like teloport proofing or scry proofing.

But also other things like sending, messengers, zone of truth... All ter major things.

 

[delericho]

One of the key details of any setting for a game being run is how the magic alters society including but far beyond the short list of "pc centric" spells listed in the PHB.

I often mention various effects existing, often as rituals, that are not in the PHB like teloport proofing or scry proofing.

But also other things like sending, messengers, zone of truth... All ter major things.

Indeed. Although it's always worth bearing in mind that it's not always the obvious "major things" that have the biggest impacts - as noted here, even a low-level spell could have world-changing implications.

 

[5ekyu]

Indeed. Although it's always worth bearing in mind that it's not always the obvious "major things" that have the biggest impacts - as noted here, even a low-level spell could have world-changing implications.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[LordEntrails]

I've got to agree that CF would have major worldwide social impacts. Impacts that generally would cause a disconnect in how most fantasy worlds are portrayed. Doesn't mean we shouldn't consider such changes in our worlds, just that in general we don't. The other thing, we generally portray our fantasy worlds in a relatively stagnant social and technological aspect.

Look at canon for the various worlds, how much "technology" or social progression has actually happened? FR, GH, DL? Nope, Eberron is the only one that has any type of historical technological advancement. Why doesn't the Realms have magical plows equivalent to a real world John Deere? I mean if they farmers have been farming and their has been magic for 10k years, why not? Even if such a thing costs 100,000 GP, you can justify it the same way you can CF.

Sure, the first step might be a safe and reliable light source, but the next might be food preservation. Then sanitation. At that point life spans increase and birth rates go up followed by individual productivity doubles. Now you have 20% of the population involved in food production instead of the medieval 95+%.

All that extra time and resources... lots of that is going to go into law enforcement, so that the tax payers are safe. And then lots of that is going to go into a military, so that commerce is safe. And with all that excess population, you are going to have to settle all those wild lands. Which means the military is going to clear out all those "old dungeons" and adventuring sites. And since soldiers don't like to die, after a thousand years, soldiers are not going to be using longswords and wearing chainmail. And why would adventurers use such archaic and inferior devices?

Look, trying to guess the impacts of technology on a fantasy world means that you can suppose just about anything. Will every peasant house having a CF break your game? Nope. But it's just one more disconnect in our fantasy. There are plenty already. Use the ones you want, ignore the ones you don't.

 

[aco175]

I did read of someone placing a continual flame spell inside a scroll case. When his PC took the cap/lid off, he had a Flashlight/torch beam and when he put the cap/lid back on the torchlight went away. I thought it was quite clever. Expensive but a good gimmick if you like that sort of thing.

Years ago in 2e time a player at a convention took one of these and placed a crystal prism in the front. His logic was to turn the prism to make only the infrared light shine through and make his elf or dwarf who had infravision see with a "flashlight". The DM went with it, but it ended up having no affect on the game.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[aco175]

Spellplague should have knocked all these out a hundred years ago, if you play in FR.

There is an old discussion on the length of forever in terms of continual flame where most thought if last years, but not truly forever.

Nobody is talking about the problem of light pollution caused by the uncovered use of all this light and how if affects all the night creatures or makes weeds grow, or causes sleep problems.

1st world problems overlapped into D&D. I like the discussion even if it sounds like I am being negative.