The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future

[3catcircus]

If you think that a 'short attention span' is an indication of stupid or immature, you either feel like you belong in that group or you have absolutely no idea how people work in relation to products. I even have a shorter attention span then 20 years ago (now 35), it's not like I've become stupid or even less immature, it's other factors. One of those is the incredible amount of entertainment we've got access to. More entertainment generally means more high quality entertainment, so we can become more critical on what forms of entertainment we spent our time on. 20 years ago I was willing to spent an evening of mediocre gaming for a few great kicks, now I expect and want a whole evening of great kicks and find mediocre gaming not worth my time. Part of that is getting older, we have less time to waste on silly things like gaming and want our free time to be filled with quality entertainment. Folks have families, kids, work, etc.

This. 100% this. Us old farts have the families and work. Our "short attention spans" are externally-induced. I've run my campaign(s) for the last 8 years or so using published adventures in published campaign settings using published monsters. I spend the scant few hours a week I have outside of the game (usually 1-2 hrs a night between the wife and kids going to bed and the time I go to bed) thinking about how to cobble it all together into a coherent experience.

As to the youngsters with the short attention spans (whether the 20-yr old hipsters or the tweens) - something that forces them to spend more than 5 minutes on something and to focus can only help them, so in the case of 4e, one could argue that WotC actually contributed to this particular societal problem endemic in western youth.

 

[Umbran]

Fair enough, I guess. Still, I would think that even in an op-ed piece, they would try to get WotC’s current POV.

"Op-ed" originally stands for "opposite the editorial page" - they're editorials written by people not beholden to the publication's editorial board. For a standard editorial, the publication's reputation is behind what is said. For an op-ed, that's not the case. So, op-eds are under even less burden than a standard editorial to be even-handed in their approach. If the author wants to, they may abide by some sense of journalistic need to show both sides of a story, but that's entirely the author's whim.

 

[technoextreme]

The thing I find most interesting about those two articles is that (whether you agree with it being intentional or not) the author makes it pretty clear that Andy Collins is the reason why 4e is what it is and why it is so reviled by those folks who have stuck with 3.x or Pathfinder.

Really? Rich Baker is the man who invented the mechanics for 4th edition so the article is wrongity wrong wrong in that regard. The ironic fact being that my general impression of the evolution of the game was right. The mechanics in 4th are nothing more than an evolution of the previous editions where you would have powers which would be going off at-will, powers that averaged once an encounter, and powers that basically amounted to about once per day. Going backwards from 4th edition to 3E/Pathfinder makes it blatantly obvious how it was designed.

 

[SpydersWebbing]

This. 100% this. Us old farts have the families and work. Our "short attention spans" are externally-induced. I've run my campaign(s) for the last 8 years or so using published adventures in published campaign settings using published monsters. I spend the scant few hours a week I have outside of the game (usually 1-2 hrs a night between the wife and kids going to bed and the time I go to bed) thinking about how to cobble it all together into a coherent experience.

As to the youngsters with the short attention spans (whether the 20-yr old hipsters or the tweens) - something that forces them to spend more than 5 minutes on something and to focus can only help them, so in the case of 4e, one could argue that WotC actually contributed to this particular societal problem endemic in western youth.

Again, what is up with this? The vast majority of people that I know who are younger who play 4th play it because it's a good game that scratches the fantasy itch. Most of them don't actually see the WoW similarity (including the people who PLAY WoW!), and the rest of them just don't care. Some don't even play 4th! Some of them play Pathfinder, because they want something different. Others play Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu (sp? Can NEVER seem to get that name right), 2nd edition (rather popular, actually), World of Darkness, etc. The people who play these games are just as capable as a grognard. As one of the younger generation I can vouch for whatever the kids are up to.

Most of them are working jobs with school, starting families of their own, are taking care of whatever family they have, etc. My point? We're not exactly sitting around. We probably have the same amount of working nerds that your generation does, with the same amount of people who are doomed to stay in their mom's basements for the rest of their existence. So please get off your high horse, because there's all sorts of wondrous things that can be said about grognards that I wouldn't even imagine bringing up because they're condescending generalizations that are not only NOT true, but are insulting.

I respect "you and yours". Please respect "me and mine". Thanks.

 

[delericho]

The thing I found most interesting in the article was that even R.A. Salvatore was so open about having major issues with 4e. The rest of it wasn't really new or surprising.

It certainly hasn't changed my view of 4e in any way - a game I enjoy playing, but not one I'd run, and certainly not my favourite edition of D&D.

But I find this thread rather more worrying. If the divisions in the Edition Wars are still as deep as they seem to be, then any 5e is almost certain to fail. And that would mean the end of D&D. Shame.

 

[3catcircus]

Really? Rich Baker is the man who invented the mechanics for 4th edition so the article is wrongity wrong wrong in that regard.

Maybe you should be telling the author of the articles that since he badmouths Andy in both the Past and Present articles. Then again, perhaps, given a lot of the hate for him that I've seen before, the author could just be in that camp.

The people who play these games are just as capable as a grognard. As one of the younger generation I can vouch for whatever the kids are up to.

Most of them are working jobs with school, starting families of their own, are taking care of whatever family they have, etc. My point? We're not exactly sitting around. We probably have the same amount of working nerds that your generation does, with the same amount of people who are doomed to stay in their mom's basements for the rest of their existence. So please get off your high horse, because there's all sorts of wondrous things that can be said about grognards that I wouldn't even imagine bringing up because they're condescending generalizations that are not only NOT true, but are insulting.

I respect "you and yours". Please respect "me and mine". Thanks.

You are completely missing the point. What the articles' author attributes to Andy Collins is that 4e was developed because of the idea that they marketed it to the current generation of gamers who are allegedly shallow and vapid with the attention span of about 5 seconds - while also trying to draw market share from older gamers while at the same time alienating those who chose to stay w/ 3.x.

So which is it? Older gamers or newer gamers? If both, then the author insinuates that Andy Collins thinks ALL gamers have short attention spans.

For those of us who don't have short attention spans, our "get to the pointedness" is due to not having the same amount of time we had years ago to devote to game prep. For those who do have short attention spans, why would you ever purposely try to reduce their attention spans ever further by selling a game designed to play into it instead of, say, 1e, where you actually had to read whole paragraphs and do some basic addition and subtraction? The efforts to make D&D accessible and acceptable during the publication of earlier editions took the approach that playing D&D exercised your brain. Now, they are (according to the articles' author, attributing to Andy Collins) marketing a game designed to foment even shorter attention spans.

 

[Therise]

It's funny... the whole Andy Collins thing...

I've been playing RPGs since the original Chainmail morphed into D&D, and the very last thing I'd ever consider my fellow gamers to have is short attention spans. Or to jump around willy-nilly from product to product.

In fact, every single gamer I've ever known has been highly detail-oriented, often researching books for hours to come up with exactly the character type, background, and history they want. My friends have always put a lot of thought and effort into their characters, or if they're DMing they'll come up with complex and convoluted plots.

Additionally, I've not known any of them to rapidly get bored and switch from one RPG to another, here to there.

So I've always wondered where Collins got his impression, and from whom.

 

[korjik]

How is playing an MMO for several hours at a time a short attention span? Am I just getting old to think that 3-4 hours of gaming is plenty?

Attention span is not the issue, it is pacing and the non-roleplay aspects of PnP games that is the issue, if it is an issue at all. By pacing I mean that if the action is too slow, then people get bored. The difference between a PnP and a MMO is that if one gets bored in the MMO, one can change what they are doing much easier than in a PnP game. By non-roleplay aspects, I mean the bookwork that must be done to play, like developing adventures and even just figuring out what you want to do when you level up. The options in an MMO are presented right up front, where in a PnP game you may have to look through several books to know about your options.

 

[Therise]

How is playing an MMO for several hours at a time a short attention span? Am I just getting old to think that 3-4 hours of gaming is plenty?

That's part of what makes this so odd. To really get anywhere in World of Warcraft, you have to have pretty focused attention for hours at a time. People with short attention spans would likely lose interest in things pretty quick, and stop leveling, stop trying to farm for gear, what have you.

I'm not saying WoW is hard. Far from it. But getting leveled and getting good gear, that takes time and focused attention. Pretty much the opposite of having a short attention span.

 

[3catcircus]

That's part of what makes this so odd. To really get anywhere in World of Warcraft, you have to have pretty focused attention for hours at a time. People with short attention spans would likely lose interest in things pretty quick, and stop leveling, stop trying to farm for gear, what have you.

I'm not saying WoW is hard. Far from it. But getting leveled and getting good gear, that takes time and focused attention. Pretty much the opposite of having a short attention span.

Actually it is more akin to repetitive assembly line work. Not much skill, not much thinking, just wash-rinse-repeat.