D&D 5E The Essence of D&D

[pkt77242]

To me, the essence of DnD is a bunch of friends sitting around the table having a good time. The social aspect of it is what makes it memorable. Nothing will turn me away from a table faster than a group of strangers who meets to compete every week to see who can come up with the most overpowered character concept. Friends, pizza, beer and DnD, you can't beat it.

Well I don't know if I would go that far but it is one of the best things in life.

Significant others and this win hands down every time.

http://youtu.be/BKPoHgKcqag

 

[The Hitcher]

Okay this is my first chance to come back to the thread since I posted t. Have you kids been good while I've been gone? D'awww, Capricia made a mess on the rug. Can't I ever leave you guys alone?

So, some responses:

I totally get what you're saying, but I don't agree with 5/6, and I think it's very clear that an awful lot of people who write for D&D, and who wrote for it in 2E particularly, didn't play it that way. My introduction to D&D was through deadly serious settings and very impressive RP and adventure design, stuff that rejected aggressive goofiness, rather than embracing it (which I think you acknowledge with 2 - the issue is that if D&D does acknowledge it, it devolves into HackMaster, at least imho).

Also, I think 4 is more about how it's run than how it is.

Fair points. You can certainly make efforts to run D&D as a super-serious game. But I'm not at all convinced that the mechanics have ever supported that style of play. I'd say they work against it pretty hard, in fact.

I would like to clarify my point (4), however. When I was talking about the "scientific" feeling of magic, I was really thinking about the way the player mechanics work, rather than about the possibility of strangeness and more magical magic in the setting. I think that this is a consequence of the fact that (a) whenever you try to lock down and systematise magic, it loses a lot of the strangeness that makes it magical, and (b) the magic system is D&D is particularly rigid and predictable, with all the spells in their own little boxes. But there is certainly still the possibility to keep mystery and magic alive in the NPCs and environment of the game (as long as the DM doesn't fall into the trap of making all the NPCs and environments follow the exact same rules as the PCs). A good example of this is the Trinkets table in Basic, which is not coincidentally one of my favourite sections of the rules.

So dungeons and dragons have an essence, and it's what you say it is, and you're right because people agree with you. That's gonna be rocky. Most of your points have nothing to do with anything, so just going to address the relevant ones.

Ouch - it burns! Yep, not going to engage with that kind of juvenile sarcasm.

I think you captured what D&D means (or has meant) to the many of us who started playing the game relatively young, and back in its early days. It was, indeed, a magical experience, because it was our first exposure to the idea of an RPG.

...

So even an old-timer who's delved into the broader hobby, recognizes classic D&D's flaws and acknowledges modern D&D's ways of addressing them as improvements, can get a little wistful for the old stuff, no matter how silly it may seem.

I only started playing D&D in the 90s, but I totally agree. Even in it's flawed kitschness, it's great fun. And like you say, you can't fault it for not knowing what it was doing, when it was the first. It was really interesting to hear that perspective about the era it was birthed from - I have to admit that I haven't really considered the shape of the game in that context of the anything-goes 70s before.

The point of this thread was to say what the essence of D&D is to YOU, not to tear apart what it is to HIM.

Can we not go one thread without being nasty to one another?

Thanks! Good to have people around who appreciate a bit of civility.

It's the Amber of RPGs, if any of you are old enough to know that reference.

Isn't Amber actually an RPG? I guess it's novels as well?

To me, today, DnD is storytelling. It is about having heroic characters find their own way through the maze that my plot is (as a GM) or about making space for myself in an ongoing epic (as a player).

Yeah, it can be that, and it's great when you can make it happen. But the mechanics really don't do a whole lot to encourage it. I'm glad that Wizards seem to be squarely focusing on story this time around, so we'll see how that goes. But if you want reliably strong narrative, you're better off going to Burning Wheel, FATE or Dungeon World.

To me, the essence of DnD is a bunch of friends sitting around the table having a good time. The social aspect of it is what makes it memorable. Nothing will turn me away from a table faster than a group of strangers who meets to compete every week to see who can come up with the most overpowered character concept. Friends, pizza, beer and DnD, you can't beat it.

Agreed. And this is why I don't worry so much about the game's mechanical or thematic faults.

Well, if you want to be snarky about it . . .

Only 4e has a systematic framework that decouples item gain from looting (and hence allows the gifting of items by hermits).

Only 4e has a systematic XP framework (eg quests) that makes freeing the kingdom from the dragon tyrant in itself a significant contributor to PC advancement.

4e and 1996 OA both, as part of PC building, give PCs a backstory that integrates them into a conflict-riven gameworld (analogous to the kingdom ruled by a dragon tyrant).

Those are some of the stronger suits of 4E, and I'm pretty sure that 5E will also support all of them, in one way or another.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone!

 

[Boarstorm]

Isn't Amber actually an RPG? I guess it's novels as well?

Actually, there was a diceless RPG based on the novels.

But I was referring to the world by the same name in both.

It is considered real, and all other worlds in existence are shadows cast by it. It's a little hard to explain.

 

[The Hitcher]

Actually, there was a diceless RPG based on the novels.

But I was referring to the world by the same name in both.

It is considered real, and all other worlds in existence are shadows cast by it. It's a little hard to explain.

Ah, the reference makes a lot more sense in that light!

 

[grimslade]

How did we go 3 pages without Conan's take?

http://youtu.be/6PQ6335puOc

D&D is telling stories with friends.
It is bizarre dice.
It is weird tropes from all times and cultures mixed into medieval-esque fantasy. Cthullhu horrors and norse bogeymen fighting shaolin monks and tolkien elves.
It has more polearms than you can shake a bec de corbin at.
It is the strange dichotomy of reality breaking magic, not changing the world much.
It is Tucker's kobolds, dread gazebos and the Head of Vecna.
D&D is not so much a game, as it is a shared vocabulary and niche.

 

[The Hitcher]

How did we go 3 pages without Conan's take?

http://youtu.be/6PQ6335puOc

D&D is telling stories with friends.
It is bizarre dice.
It is weird tropes from all times and cultures mixed into medieval-esque fantasy. Cthullhu horrors and norse bogeymen fighting shaolin monks and tolkien elves.
It has more polearms than you can shake a bec de corbin at.
It is the strange dichotomy of reality breaking magic, not changing the world much.
It is Tucker's kobolds, dread gazebos and the Head of Vecna.
D&D is not so much a game, as it is a shared vocabulary and niche.

A good way to put it. A common language, with many subtly different dialects.

 

[Capricia]

Okay this is my first chance to come back to the thread since I posted t. Have you kids been good while I've been gone? D'awww, Capricia made a mess on the rug. Can't I ever leave you guys alone?

Can I just say that someone comparing me to a female dog soiling itself in public is incredibly hostile, demeaning, misogynistic, and disturbing?

 

[TrippyHippy]

I don’t think that the magic in D&D is especially scientific or cold - it’s just a simple system that is easy to use.

I do like some games with more involved magic systems sometimes too, maybe with more unpredictable outcomes, but for me much of the appeal of D&D lies in not have to spend much time explaining rules. And I’ve always enjoyed playing D&D Magic-Users in the past, so I don’t really see the issue.

 

[The Hitcher]

I don’t think that the magic in D&D is especially scientific or cold - it’s just a simple system that is easy to use.

I do like some games with more involved magic systems sometimes too, maybe with more unpredictable outcomes, but for me much of the appeal of D&D lies in not have to spend much time explaining rules. And I’ve always enjoyed playing D&D Magic-Users in the past, so I don’t really see the issue.

I don't think it is an issue, per se. I'm just calling it out as part of the character of the game. I agree that it makes it easy to learn.

 

[ExploderWizard]

What is the essence of D&D?

To crush the monsters

See them looted before you

And hear the lamentations of the DM