• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E The Essence of D&D

The Hitcher

Explorer
[This post started as a response to an excellent post in another thread, which you can find here. It got very long and general and wandered wildly off-topic, so I figured I'd post it as a new thread instead.]

D&D is D&D. I know that it has changed over time, and that different people see and play it differently, but the designers of 5E have been aiming to find the game's essence, and I believe that they have largely succeeded. My evidence for this is that (so far) a lot of people seem to agree with me (although of course I could be proven wrong over time).

So, for the sake of argument, here are some elements that I feel are key to D&D's essence:

1) D&D is a lovable goof. It is silly in many, many ways, but this is a big part of what makes it fun.
2) D&D is a bit afraid to acknowledge its goofiness, and pretends to take itself a bit seriously. We pretend to play along.
3) D&D as a player experience is rather magical. There's a weird alchemy to it that keeps us coming back, despite its inherent silliness and the existence of "better designed" games.
4) Ironically, the fictional magic that takes place in the world of D&D isn't very magical. Just as movies set in the modern era often treat science as a kind of magic, D&D treats magic as a kind of science. There is very little that feels surprising or otherworldly about it. It's about as predictable as a high school chemistry experiment.
5) The above is just one element that contributes to the feeling that D&D is actually, weirdly, set in the modern day. Which means we give it at maximum as much latitude to be crazy and magical as we give an action movie (that is: (a) a fair bit, but only in fairly obvious ways; and (b) only a little bit, respectively).
6) The previous point is fine, because it means we can relate to the game much more than we could to a culturally remote and unsettlingly strange mythical setting. We can play "heroes" who are closer to the kids form South Park playing in the backyard than they are to Beowulf or Merlin. Which totally makes sense, given that we are essentially kids (of varying ages) playing in the back yard.
7) None of the above is to detract from point (3). Playing D&D IS magical - it's just that the magic comes from a group of humans sitting around, cracking jokes and telling a story together and fiddling around with a set of rules that stretches our brains in pleasant ways. It doesn't come from the supposed magical/mythical content of the game at all.

So that's D&D, from my perspective. D&D is the thing that fulfils all those wacky criteria. And because we want all those wacky criteria filled, we look for something that feels like D&D. We don't mind rules being fiddled with and streamlined here and there, but enough touchstones need to be in place for it to feel like what we know. It has to allow and encourage that goofy socialising. It has to stretch our brains in that slightly off-kilter and familiar way. It doesn't matter so much to us if it's "unbalanced" or doesn't make sense on some level or other. That familiar feel is key.

For many people (as has been discussed ad nauseum), 4E didn't have that feel, or didn't have enough of it. It emphasised things (character balance, intensely tactical thinking), that our D&D brains didn't care about or actively revolted against. To bring us back, 5E had to reclaim that old feeling, and the way they did it was pretty much the only way that I think would have worked: they asked people what it was that brought that feeling back.

For me, so far, it has worked. The pudding is only just coming out of the oven, as it were, but its aroma has already reached my nose, and I like what I smell. Its scent is very much comfortingly familiar, but at the same time refined and clarified in a way that makes me shiver with anticipation. It seems that they have captured the very essence of what I have been hungering for, and with very little filler.

And so arguments about the game's connections to history or myth or nitpicking about balance or this rule or that mean very little to me. They are essentially irrelevant.

This is D&D: I can't wait to taste it.

[I would love to hear your own thoughts about the essence of D&D in this thread. Despite the fact that what I've written feels totally true to me, I know that others of you will have wildly varying feelings on this point. I know I'm right ;), but your completely contrary beliefs and feelings can be right, too!]
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The Soul of D&D, you say? Well ...

WizarDru said:
The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory.

I've yet to meet a published version of D&D that didn't display this, regardless of design or mechanics.
 

I totally get what you're saying, but I don't agree with 5/6, and I think it's very clear that an awful lot of people who write for D&D, and who wrote for it in 2E particularly, didn't play it that way. My introduction to D&D was through deadly serious settings and very impressive RP and adventure design, stuff that rejected aggressive goofiness, rather than embracing it (which I think you acknowledge with 2 - the issue is that if D&D does acknowledge it, it devolves into HackMaster, at least imho).

Also, I think 4 is more about how it's run than how it is.
 

Dungeoneer

First Post
D&D has existed for forty years now. FORTY YEARS! I wasn't even a gleam in my daddy's eye in 1974, and I'm in my thirties. There have now been numerous revisions to the game (let's face it - a lot more than five), at least one per decade. And of course, this is a game that's notorious for being 'houseruled', so that perhaps even within a single version no two games are exactly the same.

Technology has had a big impact on the way people experience the game. Since the original D&D rules were released, personal computers became a thing, then video games based on D&D, then MMOs, then online tools that could help you with your game. Now we have 'apps' on our super-powered handheld computers.

Every generation's experience of D&D is different.

I think it's incredibly hard to generalize about what D&D 'is' to most people. There's a sense in which D&D is a platform, not a game. You can build an almost infinite number of different experiences on that platform.

I think with 5e, the designers have recognized to a certain extent the importance of making sure that the rules acknowledge the platform-ness of D&D. At the same time, they are trying to cater to a specific experience of the game: sort of an early-edition version of the game that somehow reflects some more modern experiences too. In a sense they are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

As far as I'm concerned, at least, they haven't been entirely successful with this endeavor. But I can't fault them for it too much, as I'm pretty sure that making ONE version of D&D which somehow encompasses ALL the possible experiences of D&D is well nigh impossible.
 

Capricia

Banned
Banned
[This post started as a response to an excellent post in another thread, which you can find here. It got very long and general and wandered wildly off-topic, so I figured I'd post it as a new thread instead.]

D&D is D&D. I know that it has changed over time, and that different people see and play it differently, but the designers of 5E have been aiming to find the game's essence, and I believe that they have largely succeeded. My evidence for this is that (so far) a lot of people seem to agree with me (although of course I could be proven wrong over time).

So dungeons and dragons have an essence, and it's what you say it is, and you're right because people agree with you. That's gonna be rocky. Most of your points have nothing to do with anything, so just going to address the relevant ones.

4) Ironically, the fictional magic that takes place in the world of D&D isn't very magical. Just as movies set in the modern era often treat science as a kind of magic, D&D treats magic as a kind of science. There is very little that feels surprising or otherworldly about it. It's about as predictable as a high school chemistry experiment.
So for you, the goal of magic is that it be science. Anything that feels mysterious or mystical is against the very essenceof DnD.

5) The above is just one element that contributes to the feeling that D&D is actually, weirdly, set in the modern day. Which means we give it at maximum as much latitude to be crazy and magical as we give an action movie (that is: (a) a fair bit, but only in fairly obvious ways; and (b) only a little bit, respectively).
Yes, the action movies I've seen are all very lowkey. Things like Kung Fu Hustle, Thor, The Matrix, Beowulf (that computer generated version), Man of Steel, or the highest grossing action movie of all time, The Avengers.

6) The previous point is fine, because it means we can relate to the game much more than we could to a culturally remote and unsettlingly strange mythical setting. We can play "heroes" who are closer to the kids form South Park playing in the backyard than they are to Beowulf or Merlin. Which totally makes sense, given that we are essentially kids (of varying ages) playing in the back yard.
Oh boy. Wow. This makes no sense. If one boy playing in the back yard said "I cast Dominate Person on you! Now you gotta eat a dog turd!" do you think the other boy would say "Haha, okay!" Do you think that the boys would be satisfied if one of them was always saying "I magicaled it with my potter wand! I win!" and kept shouting about it till he was blue in the face? No way, it's obnoxious. Do you think a boy playing pretend would think that because he can jump 4 feet, the hero he's playing can only jump 4? That because he's using a stick, his hero couldn't use a giant's 20-foot mace? Childhood imagination does NOT have these arbitrary restrictions you're trying to impose on it.


7) None of the above is to detract from point (3). Playing D&D IS magical - it's just that the magic comes from a group of humans sitting around, cracking jokes and telling a story together and fiddling around with a set of rules that stretches our brains in pleasant ways. It doesn't come from the supposed magical/mythical content of the game at all.
It's possible to have fun in a lot of ways. Breaking news there.

So that's D&D, from my perspective. D&D is the thing that fulfils all those wacky criteria. And because we want all those wacky criteria filled, we look for something that feels like D&D. We don't mind rules being fiddled with and streamlined here and there, but enough touchstones need to be in place for it to feel like what we know. It has to allow and encourage that goofy socialising. It has to stretch our brains in that slightly off-kilter and familiar way. It doesn't matter so much to us if it's "unbalanced" or doesn't make sense on some level or other. That familiar feel is key.

For many people (as has been discussed ad nauseum), 4E didn't have that feel, or didn't have enough of it. It emphasised things (character balance, intensely tactical thinking), that our D&D brains didn't care about or actively revolted against. To bring us back, 5E had to reclaim that old feeling, and the way they did it was pretty much the only way that I think would have worked: they asked people what it was that brought that feeling back.

For me, so far, it has worked. The pudding is only just coming out of the oven, as it were, but its aroma has already reached my nose, and I like what I smell. Its scent is very much comfortingly familiar, but at the same time refined and clarified in a way that makes me shiver with anticipation. It seems that they have captured the very essence of what I have been hungering for, and with very little filler.

And so arguments about the game's connections to history or myth or nitpicking about balance or this rule or that mean very little to me. They are essentially irrelevant.

This is D&D: I can't wait to taste it.

[I would love to hear your own thoughts about the essence of D&D in this thread. Despite the fact that what I've written feels totally true to me, I know that others of you will have wildly varying feelings on this point. I know I'm right ;), but your completely contrary beliefs and feelings can be right, too!]

And the circular logic is back where it started. Wizards making other players feel trivial outside of combat--and usually within it--is just how DnD is supposed to FEEEEEEL. DnD must cater to its oldest--ie, the 3e fans who started playing in 2000--and trying to fix its glaring, frankly embarrassing problems would absolutely ruin the magic of the game. Because it's impossible to have fun while pretending you're a hero like Beowulf.

apparently capricia wants a ban for attacking someone else. OK then - Plane Sailing, ENWorld Admin
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tony Vargas

Legend
I would love to hear your own thoughts about the essence of D&D in this thread. Despite the fact that what I've written feels totally true to me, I know that others of you will have wildly varying feelings on this point. I know I'm right [/I];), but your completely contrary beliefs and feelings can be right, too!]
I think you captured what D&D means (or has meant) to the many of us who started playing the game relatively young, and back in its early days. It was, indeed, a magical experience, because it was our first exposure to the idea of an RPG.

I'm afraid you've also captured some things about D&D that reflect very poorly on it as an FRPG. Magic that's more like a high-school chemistry experiment and a 'fantasy world' that's more like a modern one represent a total failure to capture the fantasy genre. I hope people don't feel inclined to blame D&D for that too harshly, though. It was the FIRST RPG, so, of course, it had a much harder time achieving any aims of a good RPG (if, indeed, such aims could even be said to have been identified at the time!), and, it /was/ the 70s.

For those of you who don't remember the 70s, it was a crazy, iconoclastic, self-indulgent time, and the idea that you might want to 'respect' a source of inspiration would have been laughed at. Munging together modern sensibilities, science-like-magic, magic-like-science, and home-invasion robbery as an heroic way of life, would have seemed like as good an idea as 8-track, disco, and pet rocks. Indeed, if you read the fantasy fiction of the day, you'd find a few very similar pieces, say, like The High Crusade, or anything by Carl Edward Wagoner come to mind. I'm sure there were others.

So even an old-timer who's delved into the broader hobby, recognizes classic D&D's flaws and acknowledges modern D&D's ways of addressing them as improvements, can get a little wistful for the old stuff, no matter how silly it may seem.
 
Last edited:

Boarstorm

First Post
The point of this thread was to say what the essence of D&D is to YOU, not to tear apart what it is to HIM.

Can we not go one thread without being nasty to one another?

On topic...

To me, the essence of D&D is ... not exploration... that's not the right word. Discovery. And challenge. And testing your (imaginary) self against a world determined to end your uppity heroic ways.

In other words, it's about discovering another world and making your mark upon it. It's about the shared stories that come out of it and are retold for a decade.

OK, well, maybe that could be said for MANY MANY RPGs. But D&D is the archetype from which the others sprung. It's the Amber of RPGs, if any of you are old enough to know that reference.
 

pkt77242

Explorer
The Soul of D&D, you say? Well ...



I've yet to meet a published version of D&D that didn't display this, regardless of design or mechanics.

I thought the soul of D&D was when my fighter is hacking the vampire to pieces and the Wizard decides to take the glory and casts a fireball thus ending the life of the vampire and my beloved fighter. Damn Glory-hound wizards.
 

Starfox

Hero
To me, today, DnD is storytelling. It is about having heroic characters find their own way through the maze that my plot is (as a GM) or about making space for myself in an ongoing epic (as a player).

It wasn't always this. I only relatively recently (say 15 years ago) discovered this way to tell stories. The 20 years before that, DnD was more like fumbling around in a dark room trying to get a story going and now knowing how, but still having (mostly) insanely fun.
 

pkt77242

Explorer
To me, today, DnD is storytelling. It is about having heroic characters find their own way through the maze that my plot is (as a GM) or about making space for myself in an ongoing epic (as a player).

It wasn't always this. I only relatively recently (say 15 years ago) discovered this way to tell stories. The 20 years before that, DnD was more like fumbling around in a dark room trying to get a story going and now knowing how, but still having (mostly) insanely fun.

Are you sure that you aren't talking about sex?
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top